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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
Your example fits right in with an ongoing theme in WOT about misconception.

Well one can always bring about the theme of misconception if one doesn't like the evidence placed before them. The truth is there is no misconception - Logain is right. Rand is stronger.

Logain, of all the men out there, shouldn't use this comparison as he had already encountered Androl at this point and fought for him to be raised to Dedicated, or he soon would, based on his remarkable ability. We also know from Naeff (who Logain also knows) that a weaker Channeler with a strong affinity for a flow can match a stronger one, so Logain is even more off base with his assessment as Rand could just as easily be Gifted in Spirit and that would explain a greater effect with a single weave, or he could be both more Gifted and more Talented. No matter how you look at Logain's statement, it's stupid of him, despite being true as his rationale is not well developed since he took only one of the possible reasons Rands gateways were larger into account when there are quiet obviously many other variables that could account for it.


It's not stupid of Logain. You yourself say that he's been exposed to a lot of male channelers. He knows that their strength is well reflected in gateway size. You can't throw out a general trend just because one channeler has an unusual Talent with a weave.

And you are ignoring a bevy of quotes/scenes to the contrary:

1. Siuan specifically states her Healing talent is the same as before. No less despite significantly less Strength
2. Egwene and Elayne are both poor Healers, by your reckoning they should be able to overcome this with more power. We've seen on a number of occasions that this is not the case
3. Androl can make a Gateway as large as Rand
4. Asmodean talks of how poor Semirhage is with Weather
5. Moghedien complaint about her lack of a stronger Talent for Compullsion
6. Naeff matching Nynaeve in Tear with flows of Air
7. Flinn notes he has trouble with gateways, indicating he should be able to make one large based on his strength


I said originally that Talent plays the greatest part in everything, but that it is rare. It is still true that strong channelers can get by with everything. Semirhage can get by with the weather even if she struggles, whereas weak channelers cannot even do that if they have no Talent. Strength obviously has a part to play which is why Moiraine and other channelers sometimes link or use angreal to perform great feats of Healing.

There are dozens more throughout the text ... Point being, you must FIRST possess enough Talent to be effective with the skill, only then will strength allow you to compensate and perhaps create as powerful an effect as a Channeler with a stronger Talent but less raw strength. And in single element weaves flow affinity will also play a part in the end effect or a weave.


If you have zero Talent you can still get by. Rand can Heal even though he isn't very good. We know for a fact that making cuendillar is a Talent, though Egwene directly says that strength in Earth is the key. Therefore a strong channeler will be able to make cuendillar even without the Talent whereas a weak one won't. Give a weak Aes Sedai an angreal and suddenly she can Travel. There are lots of examples. I'm not claiming that strength gives you Talent. I'm saying that someone with no Talent can have a weak ability in everything if they are strong in the Power.

All Logain's quote tells us is that Rand is both stronger and has at least a similar ability with gateways to Logain. By your statement Logain should also think Androl is stronger than he is!


Logain is perfectly correct. You are using an exception to blind you to the rule. Out of all the Asha'man, Androl may be the only one with this gift. Logain has less than 1% chance of being wrong if he looks at a gateway size and assume's the man's strength. In Androl's case he would be wrong, and in Berowin's case we would be wrong about her ability to shield someone. You will still be right about the vast majority of channelers you measure up from a distance.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 03/10/2012 at 07:06:15 AM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3003 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1565 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1208 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1350 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1524 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1330 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1222 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1260 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1249 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1371 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1044 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1253 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1276 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1350 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1449 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1273 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 639 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1484 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1237 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1414 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1156 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1261 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1286 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1411 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1284 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1263 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1286 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1230 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1324 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1191 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1197 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1285 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1152 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1258 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1472 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1173 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1254 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1171 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1211 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1154 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1280 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1113 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1336 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1250 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1254 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1162 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1160 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1142 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1162 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1052 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1082 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1194 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1232 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1022 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1154 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1213 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1241 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1246 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1411 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1182 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1113 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 975 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1219 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1140 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1189 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1214 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1161 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1166 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1110 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1145 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1015 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1198 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1116 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1153 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1111 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1150 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1110 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1169 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1180 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1622 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1165 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1166 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1137 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1170 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 510 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1092 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1183 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1252 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1264 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1102 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 819 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1290 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1146 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1136 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1276 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1181 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1190 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1157 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1194 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1229 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1046 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1002 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1107 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1175 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1154 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 731 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1133 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1310 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1123 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1241 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1144 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1144 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1315 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1064 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1592 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1102 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1257 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1260 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1119 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1385 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1167 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1288 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1175 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1068 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1228 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1262 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1189 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1313 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1208 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1266 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 619 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1316 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1229 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1257 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1214 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1204 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1268 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1154 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1041 Views

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