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Um she tries out of desperation? darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM
The man she loves is lying there dying on her bed, of course she makes the attempt. Her Talent is too weak to be effective, he was still going to die. There is no evidence that an angreal would boost her ability. Moiraine had a very strong Talent for Healing and was significantly weaker than Egwene so it's possible that she could do more with one, but Egwene can obviously put many times the strength necessary to make the weaves function against this problem and still could barely achieve anything. Her level of Talent was clearly maxed out by this effort.

Yet Sorilea is stronger than Androl. The obvious answer is she doesn't have a strong enough Talent with Gateways at her strength. Like we saw with Siuan, give her a strength boost and she could make the weave function, but only to the extent her Talent allowed.

As for abstract Talents ... We keep hearing that there are degrees of ability. Elaida has a weak Talent, Egwene is a strong Dreamer,, and will "outstrip the WO someday", Gitara "Had the Foreteling very powerfully" ... This is all over the text. Clearly there are ways to judge the strength of a Talent as well. Granted these are relatively passive Talents and have no effect of weaves since they are not reliant on them, but it's obvious that not all Dreamers or Foretellers are not created equal.

You don't want to believe that characters can say things in the books and be wrong, despite misconception being thematic throughout the series. Do the math, everyone (except the FS) talks about Strength for gateways for the first few months they are around. Then suddenly we start seeing Androl who throws that argument out the window since its obvious that what he does (according to Taim) should be impossible. Eventually AS will start to notice that there are women who are making gateways that are disproportionate to their Strength, Give the Brown and the White some time to investigate and I would bet they realize many nuances. It likely won't be as dramatic as Androl, who is clearly an outlier, but, for argument sake, when Beonin can make a gateway nearly the size of what Egwene can and Lelaine can't match that folks will start to wonder why. Medani is another potential candidate for strong Traveling Talent IMO. She manages a decent size gateway and splits her flows to carry Verins corpse, something we know to be difficult. So she's either a lot stronger than we think she is or she is gifted in Traveling, also note Medani is similar to Androl in her love of travel... Nice little hint for us.

As for how common it is ... All you have to do is look at how many people can actually Travel. We know it is a Talent, which means in order to do it you must possess some level of the Talent or now matter how strong you were you wouldn't be able to make the weaves work to any meaningful effect, Nynaeve can't make Cuendillar, Semihage being poor at Weather etc... Therefore it follows that the Talent is somewhat common to the Channeling community.

Ultimately I think this boils down to this.

1. I think Androl's ability makes judging someone's OP Strength from gateway size invalid. Just as it would be foolish to measure Berowin's strength based on who she can shield. In fact I tend to believe you cannot accurately judge OP Strength based on any individual effect. There are simply too many variables involved. Yes strength is part of this, but you can't back into someone's strength based on a single effect that obviously Talent plays a huge role in.

2. I think the Talent defines the maximum extent a Channeler can effect something. It is very possible that a weak Channeler with a massive Talent such as Androl could create an even larger gateway if you handed him an angreal ... I would say that is a case where the Talent is beyond his natural Stength and therefore he can continue to add strength and get a larger effect. But on the flip side of that Flinn has to put far more strength into his much smaller gateway, and likely would not be able to make a significantly larger one even with an angreal, his level of Talent is restricting the size of the gateway. It's like a flashlight, the bulb is the Talent and the battery is strength. As the battery power fades the light grows dimmer until there is not enough power to make the thing work. But no matter how powerful the battery the bulb will never be brighter than its maximum output and it might even blow if you put too much power behind it. Finn has a 10 watt bulb with a strong battery and Androl has a 100 watt bulb with a weak battery. Flinn is clearly perturbed by this lack as he must knew that the amount OP he has to use to make a gateway is more than other Asha'man ... It obviously bugs him to not understand why.

Circles and mixed circles are too difficult to judge since we don't have enough information on how Talent is affected in these circumstances. The BotW effect certainly seems indicative that there may well be a huge increase in effectiveness when Linked, as that circle managed an effect well beyond what the Bowl was designed for and it was by no means a massively strong circle (by AoL standards).

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2907 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1480 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1124 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1265 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1418 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1261 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1145 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1180 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1162 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1283 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 956 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1166 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1192 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1268 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1354 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1164 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 595 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1381 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1145 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1322 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1077 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1162 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1196 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1336 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1167 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1181 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1195 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1158 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1243 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1117 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1122 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1188 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1016 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1167 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1392 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1082 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1159 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1102 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1140 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1085 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1202 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1031 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1233 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1162 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1176 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1081 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1063 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1042 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1084 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 946 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1003 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1118 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 971 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1134 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 949 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1069 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1139 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1114 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1141 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1312 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1104 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1021 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 869 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1136 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1060 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1091 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1109 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1078 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1081 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1029 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1065 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 943 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1113 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1010 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1046 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1045 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1053 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1022 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1093 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1086 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1500 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1059 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1066 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1041 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1097 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 475 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1020 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1062 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1161 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1144 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1020 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 778 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1214 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1054 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1164 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1096 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1107 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1058 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1093 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1129 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 957 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 928 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1030 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1091 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1079 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 693 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1044 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1192 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1018 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1158 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1077 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1046 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1211 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 976 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1471 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1028 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1171 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1128 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1025 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1290 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1086 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1203 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1083 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 968 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1109 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1192 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1119 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1211 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1145 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1165 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 583 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1229 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1145 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1135 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1116 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1086 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1145 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1075 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 950 Views

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