The man she loves is lying there dying on her bed, of course she makes the attempt. Her Talent is too weak to be effective, he was still going to die. There is no evidence that an angreal would boost her ability. Moiraine had a very strong Talent for Healing and was significantly weaker than Egwene so it's possible that she could do more with one, but Egwene can obviously put many times the strength necessary to make the weaves function against this problem and still could barely achieve anything. Her level of Talent was clearly maxed out by this effort.
Yet Sorilea is stronger than Androl. The obvious answer is she doesn't have a strong enough Talent with Gateways at her strength. Like we saw with Siuan, give her a strength boost and she could make the weave function, but only to the extent her Talent allowed.
As for abstract Talents ... We keep hearing that there are degrees of ability. Elaida has a weak Talent, Egwene is a strong Dreamer,, and will "outstrip the WO someday", Gitara "Had the Foreteling very powerfully" ... This is all over the text. Clearly there are ways to judge the strength of a Talent as well. Granted these are relatively passive Talents and have no effect of weaves since they are not reliant on them, but it's obvious that not all Dreamers or Foretellers are not created equal.
You don't want to believe that characters can say things in the books and be wrong, despite misconception being thematic throughout the series. Do the math, everyone (except the FS) talks about Strength for gateways for the first few months they are around. Then suddenly we start seeing Androl who throws that argument out the window since its obvious that what he does (according to Taim) should be impossible. Eventually AS will start to notice that there are women who are making gateways that are disproportionate to their Strength, Give the Brown and the White some time to investigate and I would bet they realize many nuances. It likely won't be as dramatic as Androl, who is clearly an outlier, but, for argument sake, when Beonin can make a gateway nearly the size of what Egwene can and Lelaine can't match that folks will start to wonder why. Medani is another potential candidate for strong Traveling Talent IMO. She manages a decent size gateway and splits her flows to carry Verins corpse, something we know to be difficult. So she's either a lot stronger than we think she is or she is gifted in Traveling, also note Medani is similar to Androl in her love of travel... Nice little hint for us.
As for how common it is ... All you have to do is look at how many people can actually Travel. We know it is a Talent, which means in order to do it you must possess some level of the Talent or now matter how strong you were you wouldn't be able to make the weaves work to any meaningful effect, Nynaeve can't make Cuendillar, Semihage being poor at Weather etc... Therefore it follows that the Talent is somewhat common to the Channeling community.
Ultimately I think this boils down to this.
1. I think Androl's ability makes judging someone's OP Strength from gateway size invalid. Just as it would be foolish to measure Berowin's strength based on who she can shield. In fact I tend to believe you cannot accurately judge OP Strength based on any individual effect. There are simply too many variables involved. Yes strength is part of this, but you can't back into someone's strength based on a single effect that obviously Talent plays a huge role in.
2. I think the Talent defines the maximum extent a Channeler can effect something. It is very possible that a weak Channeler with a massive Talent such as Androl could create an even larger gateway if you handed him an angreal ... I would say that is a case where the Talent is beyond his natural Stength and therefore he can continue to add strength and get a larger effect. But on the flip side of that Flinn has to put far more strength into his much smaller gateway, and likely would not be able to make a significantly larger one even with an angreal, his level of Talent is restricting the size of the gateway. It's like a flashlight, the bulb is the Talent and the battery is strength. As the battery power fades the light grows dimmer until there is not enough power to make the thing work. But no matter how powerful the battery the bulb will never be brighter than its maximum output and it might even blow if you put too much power behind it. Finn has a 10 watt bulb with a strong battery and Androl has a 100 watt bulb with a weak battery. Flinn is clearly perturbed by this lack as he must knew that the amount OP he has to use to make a gateway is more than other Asha'man ... It obviously bugs him to not understand why.
Circles and mixed circles are too difficult to judge since we don't have enough information on how Talent is affected in these circumstances. The BotW effect certainly seems indicative that there may well be a huge increase in effectiveness when Linked, as that circle managed an effect well beyond what the Bowl was designed for and it was by no means a massively strong circle (by AoL standards).
Yet Sorilea is stronger than Androl. The obvious answer is she doesn't have a strong enough Talent with Gateways at her strength. Like we saw with Siuan, give her a strength boost and she could make the weave function, but only to the extent her Talent allowed.
As for abstract Talents ... We keep hearing that there are degrees of ability. Elaida has a weak Talent, Egwene is a strong Dreamer,, and will "outstrip the WO someday", Gitara "Had the Foreteling very powerfully" ... This is all over the text. Clearly there are ways to judge the strength of a Talent as well. Granted these are relatively passive Talents and have no effect of weaves since they are not reliant on them, but it's obvious that not all Dreamers or Foretellers are not created equal.
You don't want to believe that characters can say things in the books and be wrong, despite misconception being thematic throughout the series. Do the math, everyone (except the FS) talks about Strength for gateways for the first few months they are around. Then suddenly we start seeing Androl who throws that argument out the window since its obvious that what he does (according to Taim) should be impossible. Eventually AS will start to notice that there are women who are making gateways that are disproportionate to their Strength, Give the Brown and the White some time to investigate and I would bet they realize many nuances. It likely won't be as dramatic as Androl, who is clearly an outlier, but, for argument sake, when Beonin can make a gateway nearly the size of what Egwene can and Lelaine can't match that folks will start to wonder why. Medani is another potential candidate for strong Traveling Talent IMO. She manages a decent size gateway and splits her flows to carry Verins corpse, something we know to be difficult. So she's either a lot stronger than we think she is or she is gifted in Traveling, also note Medani is similar to Androl in her love of travel... Nice little hint for us.
As for how common it is ... All you have to do is look at how many people can actually Travel. We know it is a Talent, which means in order to do it you must possess some level of the Talent or now matter how strong you were you wouldn't be able to make the weaves work to any meaningful effect, Nynaeve can't make Cuendillar, Semihage being poor at Weather etc... Therefore it follows that the Talent is somewhat common to the Channeling community.
Ultimately I think this boils down to this.
1. I think Androl's ability makes judging someone's OP Strength from gateway size invalid. Just as it would be foolish to measure Berowin's strength based on who she can shield. In fact I tend to believe you cannot accurately judge OP Strength based on any individual effect. There are simply too many variables involved. Yes strength is part of this, but you can't back into someone's strength based on a single effect that obviously Talent plays a huge role in.
2. I think the Talent defines the maximum extent a Channeler can effect something. It is very possible that a weak Channeler with a massive Talent such as Androl could create an even larger gateway if you handed him an angreal ... I would say that is a case where the Talent is beyond his natural Stength and therefore he can continue to add strength and get a larger effect. But on the flip side of that Flinn has to put far more strength into his much smaller gateway, and likely would not be able to make a significantly larger one even with an angreal, his level of Talent is restricting the size of the gateway. It's like a flashlight, the bulb is the Talent and the battery is strength. As the battery power fades the light grows dimmer until there is not enough power to make the thing work. But no matter how powerful the battery the bulb will never be brighter than its maximum output and it might even blow if you put too much power behind it. Finn has a 10 watt bulb with a strong battery and Androl has a 100 watt bulb with a weak battery. Flinn is clearly perturbed by this lack as he must knew that the amount OP he has to use to make a gateway is more than other Asha'man ... It obviously bugs him to not understand why.
Circles and mixed circles are too difficult to judge since we don't have enough information on how Talent is affected in these circumstances. The BotW effect certainly seems indicative that there may well be a huge increase in effectiveness when Linked, as that circle managed an effect well beyond what the Bowl was designed for and it was by no means a massively strong circle (by AoL standards).
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Problems with gateways
28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Re: Re-read some stuff
05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM
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Um she tries out of desperation?
05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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Please explain Androl then
07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
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Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
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