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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
Beonin:

Knife of Dreams
Chapter Two
The Dark One’s Touch

As soon as Tervail let the canvas fall, she embraced saidar and wove Spirit almost caressingly. This weave fascinated her. a rediscovery of something thought lost forever and surely the greatest of Egwene al’-Veres discoveries. Every time she wove it she felt a sense of wonder, so familiar as novice and even Accepted, that had not come to her since she attained the shawl. Something new and marvelous. The vertical silvery line appeared in front of her, right atop the scoring on the ground. and suddenly became a gap that widened, the view through appearing to rotate until she was faced by a square hole in the air, more than two paces by two, that showed snow-draped oaks with heavy spreading limbs.

for argument sake we can call this 7 feet by 7 feet (1 span = 3 feet) since it's a little more than 2 paces x 2 paces

Here is the largest one we've seen from Egwene:

A Crown of Swords
Chapter 12
A Morning Of Victory

Weaving a gateway where he had been practicing the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness that stretched forever.

So Egwene creates a gateway approximately 30% larger than Beonin can ... that's nice until you realize that Beonin is no stronger than Melaine who is approximately half of Egwene's strength. Either Egwene should be able to create a gateway that is 10 feet x 10 feet (which makes her like 70% Rand's strength) ... clearly we would have seen that by now if she could pull it off. Alternatively Beonin at her strength level should only be able to create a gate way about 5.75 feet x 5.75 feet if she was of "average" Talent.

I would also state it is highly unlikely that Egwene has a weak Traveling Talent since she discovered the weave for women and that seems highly unlikely if she did not possess a good strong talent for it.

Rand Quote
Chapter 54
To Caemlyn

The gateway appeared at the foot of the steps, first a bright line that seemed to turn, opening into a square hole into blackness four paces wide. Not a murmur came from the Aiel. Those beyond would be able to see him as through a smoked glass, a dusky shimmering in the air, but they could as well try walking through one of the palace walls. From the side, the gateway would be invisible except to the few close enough to see what might seem a long, fine hair drawn tight.

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.


I acknowledge that you can make at least a couple of arguments here ... Neither woman looks to have strained to create their gateways so we can even be sure these are as large as either woman can manage. But this is what we have to go on. I'm inclined to think Egwene could produce a somewhat larger gateway than she did in this scene. It was, after all, for only her and Lan ... and you could just as easily argue that Beonin showed no strain and only had 2 people to Travel with as well.

But based on Aviendha's gateway in TPoD I suspect Egwene can create one of at least 9x9 since she is stronger than Aviendha in current strength..

The Path of Daggers
Chapter 1
To Keep The Bargain

Aviendha focused, and the flows wove together, creating identity between this place and the place she and Elayne and Nynaeve had chosen on a map. She gestured as though opening tentflaps. That was no part of the weave Elayne had taught her, but it was almost all she could recall of what she herself had done, long before Egwene made her first gateway. The flows coalesced into a silvery, vertical slash that rotated and became an opening in the air, taller than a man and just as wide. Beyond lay a large clearing surrounded by trees twenty or thirty feet high, miles north of the City, on the far side of the river. Knee-high brown grass came right up to the gateway, swaying through in a small breeze; it had not truly turned, only seemed to. Some of those blades were sliced cleanly, though, some lengthwise. The edges of an opening gateway made a razor seem dull.

The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her. She felt no envy – rather, she took pride in her near-sister’s accomplishments – but her own failure made shame surge in her heart. Sorilea or Amys would be hard on her, if they knew that. About the shame. Too much pride, they would call it. Amys should understand; she had been a Maiden. There wasshame in failing at what you should be able to do. If she had not had to hold the weave, she would have run away so no one could see her.


Given Aviendha's perspective on how tall a man should be that makes this gate way at least 7x7 and she says Elayne can create a larger and thinks she should be able to as well if she could remember her original Weave. That means Elayne potentially has a Stronger Talent for Traveling than Egwene (because she is currently weaker) or that Egwene can create a larger than 8x8 gateway. Or both!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 11:27:03 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2753 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1290 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 969 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1113 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1183 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1102 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 974 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1018 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 993 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1138 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 778 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1006 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1031 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1091 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1193 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1005 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 524 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1188 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 989 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1163 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 893 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 995 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1023 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1166 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 981 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 992 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1030 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1001 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1066 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 964 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 975 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1018 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 845 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1013 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1209 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 904 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1012 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 924 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 960 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 924 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1039 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 870 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1079 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1015 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1010 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 930 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 881 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 866 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 903 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 781 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 845 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 943 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 825 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 964 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 805 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 911 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 943 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 961 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 993 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1139 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 932 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 864 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 717 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 974 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 906 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 914 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 966 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 901 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 908 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 875 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 915 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 798 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 970 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 866 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 900 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 860 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 881 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 877 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 919 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 906 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1369 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 905 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 911 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 891 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 919 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 416 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 879 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 912 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 988 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 997 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 873 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 714 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1048 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 890 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 899 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1008 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 929 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 961 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 905 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 906 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 957 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 803 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 781 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 878 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 942 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 920 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 623 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 893 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1022 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 865 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 992 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 923 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 901 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1037 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 825 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1292 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 858 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1014 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 954 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 872 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1090 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 929 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1039 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 910 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 807 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 922 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1041 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 958 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1010 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 943 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1002 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 502 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1056 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 995 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 990 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 945 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 914 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 989 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 882 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 776 Views

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