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Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM
I've said all along that strength is a factor in making a gateway. I just don't think it is the determining factor ... Basically I keep saying your level of Talent determines how much strength you need to create a gateway of a certain size. Thus Flinn needs to push to make them and Adndrol does not. I also believe that Talent defines the limits of your ability regardless of your strength, meaning an angreal won't make Egwene a better Healer because her problem is not raw strength it's lack of Talent.

I agree with Fionwe completely in why we the reader cannot use gateway size to accurately measure OP strength. We have too many examples where a Talent shows us that this is a flawed system ... And I believe it was Shannow who had a very extensive set of posts "proving" that gateway size "100%" defined strength.

There is no evidence that Traveling Talent is "average" in most Channelers. It's hardly been discussed in the books, but we do have several examples of disproportionate gateways out there. Personally I doubt we'll see much more on this in the books, but I suspect Talent strength distribution is on a Bell Curve just like over all strength. But I don't think there is a relationship between where you fall on the strength Bell and where you fall on the talent Bell. But realistically the odds are you will fall within a similar range for both.

So Flinn at a 60 strength may only have a 40 talent and thus struggles with his gateway size because he sees another AS who is maybe a 50 strength and has a 60 talent can make a slightly larger gateway. If Medani has a 30 strength and a 60 talent she could make a small gateway and split her flows to carry a body without much strain ... If she was a 30/30 she may have had problems. Androl is clearly the big wild card since he may only have a 5 strength but his 100 talent allows for huge gateways. Talent may have a much larger distribution than strength as well in order to explain an extreme instance like Androl who is so weak he can do almost nothing with the OP except what his Talent allows. Or perhaps he also possesses a Spirit flow affinity and is doubling up on his bonuses for gateways (personally I think that is a stretch).


I personally believe that Talent is the defining quality of Travelling, but I also believe that everyone has the same general ability - therefore they are not Talented by virtue of the fact that everyone is the same so they don't stand out. Therefore they need a minimum strength to make a gateway and they can make a gateway according to their strength... roughly. I think if you take ten channelers of equal strength, they will have similar gateways, but not identical.

I think out of ten channelers, one might have a high Talent and one a low Talent. Someone with a low Talent will struggle to Travel and will use more of the Power to Travel or have smaller gateways. Someone with a high Talent will obviously be like Androl, who has disproportionate ability. It would be interesting to see if Androl can block a gateway or make very large skimming platforms. I think he probably could. He very nearly 'defeated' the dreamspike (its possible he still might to help them escape the BT).

I think it is obvious that the Talent is average in most channelers. Someone once asked RJ how two black ajah could hold Nynaeve if she's so powerful and he replied 'some people have shielding Talents'. And I pretty much believe the same with Travelling (you can adapt the question to Androl). I think most people have an average Talent at shielding but you get rather useless shielders (I actually think Nynaeve may be one by her failure to shield Elayne or hold Logain), and great ones (like Berowin).
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3003 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1564 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1208 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1350 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1524 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1329 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1221 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1260 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1248 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1369 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1044 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1251 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1275 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1349 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1448 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1273 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 638 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1484 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1236 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1413 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1156 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1261 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1285 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1411 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1283 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1262 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1285 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1230 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1323 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1191 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1197 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1285 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1151 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1257 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1472 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1173 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1253 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1171 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1211 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1154 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1278 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1113 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1336 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1249 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1253 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1162 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1158 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1141 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1160 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1052 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1081 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1194 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1232 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1022 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1154 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1213 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1240 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1246 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1411 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1182 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1113 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 975 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1219 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1140 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1188 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1214 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1161 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1166 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1109 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1145 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1014 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1198 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1116 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1153 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1110 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1149 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1109 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1169 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1180 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1620 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1165 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1166 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1137 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1168 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 510 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1092 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1183 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1250 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1264 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1101 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 819 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1290 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1145 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1136 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1276 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1180 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1189 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1157 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1193 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1229 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1046 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1002 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1107 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1175 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1154 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 731 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1132 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1309 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1123 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1241 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1144 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1144 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1315 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1064 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1592 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1102 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1257 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1260 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1119 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1384 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1166 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1286 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1175 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1068 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1228 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1261 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1189 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1312 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1208 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1266 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 619 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1315 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1228 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1257 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1213 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1203 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1268 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1154 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1040 Views

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