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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA Send a noteboard - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
I don't know if you guys have discussed this yet, but Androl says as much. He mentions that he suspects his Talent is due to being so well Travelled.


It was the inspiration for my first post on the topic, but we got rapidly sidetracked in a chicken vs. egg debate over whether Androl was the type who couldn't stay long in one place because of a latent talent with a weave, or whether in this case the fact he's a great traveller, has developped spacial skills in domains like architecture and engineering, has contributed to what was perhaps a less outstanding natural affinity for Travelling that through mundane skills and knowledge he's honed to something really special.

You pointed out a quote from Maria where she thinks there's predestiny involved, but even though she has access to more material than us to make up her opinion, the fact she "thinks" indicate it's not something stated black on white in the notes (it's probably too general to appear in the notes, RJ knew the answer and either way he's applied the principle to create a great deal of channellers, he didn't need to put that to paper).

In the end it doesn't matter, it's the correlation between personality/mundane skill/knowledge and special field of affinities with the OP that's important, and between Androl and the Wisdoms who've become novices showing great skills to learn the new/real method of healing, the case is pretty strong. Those two occurences (Androl, the novices) are probably not incidental at all, it's rather a clue/sign that understanding of the OP and mundane knowledge is nearing a momenteous breakthrough, that channelers are about to understand channelling is only one aspect, and they need to develop their other skills too to really hone their OP skills, something the AOL Aes Sedai evidently understood (but didn't necessarily applied systematically... we've got two glaring exemples in Moghedien and Aran'gar, two who liked it easy and seemed to have little interest in developping their OP skills.. and who are both without known real Talents - TAR skills excluded, and for Moghedien TAR is largely a matter of avoiding direct challenges...).

If we dig enough, we'd find the evidence (notably in EOTW) that Elayne has always been interested in crafts and understanding how things work (even with more abstract concepts like politics, she's very much a person looking into causes and effects. She's probably a character who inherited RJ's "engineer" mind, thus her talent at making ter'angreal.)

And if we look at Aviendha, we see a person always keen to understand the purpose of everything, a side of her we've seen mostly in play in cultural matters. She's the Aiel always questionning why Wetlanders do this and that the way they do. There's probably a corrolation between that type of personality and her talent to understand the purpose of ter'angreal intuitively.

Interestingly, sisters with a great skill at "old style" Healing, the Heal-All-I-just-won't-let-you-die-on-me Healing are often shown as terribly stubborn, determined, single-minded and quite often they're plain bullies (from Romanda to Moiraine to Suana to Anayia, who were were told refused to budge an inch once she had taken a position. Suana described the Ajah as that of those who wished to repair what's broken, but more often than not good healers are more the type "who know how things should work, and won't give up until they work as they think it should work, and often they get what they want... Romanda is perhaps the epitome of that. People able to compromise or who change their mind too often often suck at Healing... Elayne and Egwene for instance.). People who show skills at the far more complex and really medical minded Restoring skills are different, with a real "calling" for medicine. Nyaneve is a mix of the two in her personality, and she's skilled at both forms of Healing, though she doesn't think much of "battlefield healing", which is a very unnatural concept for someone used to diagnose and find the cause, and apply the specific treatment that will have the desired effect, conscious she has to deal with possible side effects too. Nyaneve diagnoses with Delving. Healers rather used it to judge if their skill at Heal-all was great enough to work, and if the person was strong enough to survive the treament.

I'm pretty sure that without her Wisdom training, Nynaeve would never have made the discoveries she did. Her medical knowledge drove her. As primitive as her knowledge might seem to a modern physician, there was extremely little hocus pocus and superstition in Nynaeve's mundane methods as Wisdom. It's more empirical than anything, but it's still a fairly scientific approach, relying on very elaborate knowledge of active elements found in nature, and a pretty good empirical understanding of a body's working. Even if they have the skills to handle the five flows and make the weaves, a lot of Yellows would have no idea where to begin to use Nynaeve's methods as she relies massively on knowledge that feeds her intuition of how she should tweak the weaves to achieve a specific effect (and very tellingly, she seems to aim to reproduce inconsciously the effect a specific herb would have... still often by using the herb in question in parallel at this stage), and to even come close to her abilities they would need to study with Wisdoms for years to develop their medical knowledge, and that's without saying anything of women like Moiraine for whom the medical field is probably completely foreign.

There's very little doubt Elayne would develop her own skills with ter'angreal by leaps and bounds if she were to study engineering, maths and geometry, chemistry, physics with scholars at the Academies (well... her Cairhienin one anyway, her Andoran one is almost certainly gone and the scholars within lost). It would greatly refine and deepen what she does now by pure intuition and luck. Right now she doesn't understand the complex relationships between shape, matter, color and effect. She's got the mind of engineer, but she'd need real theorical knowledge to become more than a gifted amateur who can copy objects with varying success, and whose experience at that will grow slowly over the years, and reach a point where she can't advance on her own anymore without gaining the theorical knowledge she'd need.

This message last edited by DomA on 09/10/2012 at 05:21:43 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2907 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1480 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1124 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1265 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1418 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1261 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1145 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1180 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1163 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1283 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 957 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1167 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1192 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1268 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1354 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1164 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 595 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1381 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1145 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1322 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1078 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1162 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1196 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1336 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1167 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1181 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1196 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1158 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1244 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1118 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1122 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1188 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1017 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1167 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1392 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1083 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1159 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1102 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1141 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1085 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1202 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1031 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1233 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1162 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1176 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1081 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1063 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1042 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1084 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 946 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1004 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1118 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 971 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1135 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 950 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1069 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1139 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1114 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1141 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1312 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1104 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1022 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 869 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1136 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1060 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1091 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1110 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1078 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1081 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1030 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1065 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 944 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1113 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1011 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1047 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1045 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1053 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1022 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1093 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1087 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1501 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1059 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1067 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1042 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1097 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 475 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1020 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1062 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1161 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1145 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1021 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 778 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1215 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1062 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1055 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1164 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1096 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1108 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1058 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1094 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1130 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 957 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 928 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1031 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1091 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1080 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 693 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1044 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1193 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1018 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1159 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1077 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1047 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1211 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 976 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1471 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1028 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1171 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1128 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1026 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1291 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1087 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1203 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1084 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 968 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1109 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1192 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1120 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1212 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1145 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1166 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 583 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1229 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1146 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1135 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1116 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1086 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1146 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1075 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 951 Views

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