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still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. Onarishma Send a noteboard - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM

For books and books, we had people tell us men were stronger than women, and women needed circles to match men. Then RJ gave us the real answer and blew that misconception among the channelers into the garbage can. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here?

We still don't know what is going on there, and the most likely explanation is that RJ changed his mind. Moghedien tells Nynaeve that men are stronger in the Power. There can be no ignorance there, and yet we know that it isn't true in practice.

And that's okay, because Logain doesn't care about exact strength, or strength distribution. But we do. We have to be scientific and accurate, because we're trying to do something Logain has no interest in. Logain cares how effective people are at their tasks, and he had Androl promoted because he can Travel with extraordinary ease. But we're not into promoting Asha'man. We want to know exactly how strong they are, and how to figure out their strength. Comments from Flinn, Rand and Aviendha, as well as the Gateways of Androl and Reanne (Beonin too), prove that Gateway size is not a good indicator of exact strength. RJ even had Pevara make this mistake, in KoD, when she thought that they should bond men who make larger Gateways since they'll be stronger. Then who pops into her house and is likely to be her Warder? Androl.

Well I'm more like Logain I'm afraid, not a scientist in that sense. I don't think anyone has ever said that gateways can express exact strength but they give a good indication in most cases, like most weaves that are strength dependent. If you judged a channeler on who they can shield you'd probably be right in many cases too. You'd see that Nynaeve can shield most women therefore Nynaeve must be strong in the Power. However, if you get caught out by Berowin, you're caught out. Like with Androl. We don't live in a test tube.... Logain's thought processes are human, practical and mostly reliable. If Red Ajah bond the biggest gateway Ash'aman they will get the nine strongest men in the BT and Androl.

Lanfear is also the only woman we've seen with that strength, remember? That you'd naturally pick one outlier instead of another shows the lack of scientific rigor in your process, no? The right way is to judge the woman's OP strength AND her Talent at shielding. Not ignore one or the other just because it mostly works.

Lanfear and Rand are bad examples for the general population of channeling. You can rather apply it to weaker channelers. Cadsuane would think that Sorilea must be almost as strong as her to hold her, she wouldn't likely think of a shielding Talent.


I think it still holds that men have more strength than women. But it's also obvious how little that matters on an effectiveness scale. Lanfear in Raw terms could be a lot weaker than Rand, but clearly was more than his equal when they faced off ... Graendal shielded Aran'gar with ease because she was more "effectively strong". It is doubtful that any man could simply overwhelm Graendal with just raw strength (unless he caught her by surprise), she can too easily slice his flows or otherwise defend herself because she knows how to fight off an attack from an assailant who's flows she cannot see. She alludes to this when contemplating attacking Sammael, and it's ultimately why she knows she will lose since she was not already holding the Power she knew he had the clear advantage.

Where this probably matters at the moment is with the modern Channelers ... An average Asha'man will have a lot more raw strength than an average AS, but because they are not particularly well trained I don't think the effectiveness bonus a woman has is as prominent as it is with the AoL Channelers. Most modern AS have no experience facing any kind of fight, look how poorly they did against the Seanchan, now fighting a man whose flows are invisible to them and without training for it? Raw strength is almost always going to come out on top in that scenario. And I think we've seen that bear out in the text often enough. It's one of the reasons the AS look so weak IMO ... We only really see them on raw strength scales most of the time because they aren't well trained.

I believe only Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha and Cadsuane are capable of overcoming the strength gap at the moment. Which may not even be an issue for them as I would bet they are each at least as strong as an "average" man in raw terms.

I think it was Shannow who had a whole theory about gateway size and strength a while back ... There was a bunch of posts around it ... possibly in the wotmania days.


In the beginning of the series we were taught by Asmodean that men are much stronger and that it generally takes two women to match a man. At first glance one would think that he was perhaps lying (being Forsaken and all) but the example continued in the series. Rahvin said that Lanfear and Graendal would link if he or Sammael went for them, which is clearly an example of where Asmodean left off. Later we have Aes Sedai wondering whether two of them together can match an Asha'man.

Suddenly though, there seemed to be a shift and RJ said directly to us that women and men are effectively equal, even though men can hold more of the Power. I don't think it matters though, because a woman probably needs 4 saidar to Travel and a man 5 saidin, so it balances out to the same fraction of their power.

To me he clearly changed his mind, and he started to reinforce it more and more. He probably thought that female circles balanced the male strength advantage, but he replaced this later with the fact that all channelers are essentially equal, especially because men, too, can be in a circle. We then saw better examples of where Graendal matched up evenly with Sammael etc.


Lanfear and Graendal are not average women. Linking is an advantage that is more probable between women not only because it is easier to do but also because when linked with a man the man has to be in charge the two women can choose and pass. I don't believe Rahvin was scared of being matched by the linked pair he was stating they had the advantage because threatened they could overpower him easily and still separate without dispute. And while the current AS don't know how to fight over control the possible evasion on the journey to use the bowl of winds indicates that two women COULD fight over the control of the circle if they felt so inclined. There definitely seemed to be some snatching going on when control was being passed between the members of that circle.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2907 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1480 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1124 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1265 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1418 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1261 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1145 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1180 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1163 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1283 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 957 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1167 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1192 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1268 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1354 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1164 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 595 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1381 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1145 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1322 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1078 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1162 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1196 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1336 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1167 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1181 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1196 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1158 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1244 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1118 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1122 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1188 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1017 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1167 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1392 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1083 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1159 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1102 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1141 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1085 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1202 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1031 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1233 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1162 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1176 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1081 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1064 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1042 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1084 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 946 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1004 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1118 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 971 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1135 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 950 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1069 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1140 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1114 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1141 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1312 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1104 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1022 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 870 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1136 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1060 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1091 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1110 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1078 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1081 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1030 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1065 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 944 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1113 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1011 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1047 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1045 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1053 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1022 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1093 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1087 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1501 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1059 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1067 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1042 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1097 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 475 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1020 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1062 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1161 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1145 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1021 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 778 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1215 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1062 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1055 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1164 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1096 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1108 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1058 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1094 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1130 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 957 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 928 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1031 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1091 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1080 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 693 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1045 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1193 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1018 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1159 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1077 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1047 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1211 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 976 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1471 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1028 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1171 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1128 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1026 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1291 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1087 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1203 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1084 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 968 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1109 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1192 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1120 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1212 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1145 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1166 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 583 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1229 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1146 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1135 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1116 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1086 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1146 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1075 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 951 Views

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