I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
we have seen for many books now that far more than a "handful" of women are capable of making gateways. I'm pretty certain that in every book since this statement we've been introduced to many women who who have the strength. Far more than 12% of the overall female channeling population are capable of making the Weave ... given Bell Curve statements from RJ and where general AS strength lies I'd venture that at least 50% of women will end up being capable of the feat.
In addition, using AS strength distribution to make this determination is beyond faulty. RJ stated that 32.5% of women are too weak to be AS, and there are bound to be at least a "handful" of women with an outlier Talent such as Androl, doubt we'll see one, but mathematically they MUST exist.
Verin is far less than 50% of maximum Female strength, you should be able to easily deduce that Egwene is fundamentally wrong in assuming that "only a handful" of women had the strength to do it ... she clearly was only looking at a very small sample of mid-tier AS women when she made the statement. As the "handful" she refers to are at LEAST as strong as Verin, and she is not too far about the Average AS strength.
Even If you assume most AS cannot make the weave work, meaning more than 1/2 of AS are between Daigian and Verin in strength and do not possess a strong enough Talent to compensate for the lack, you still have a pretty large population of women above Verin who CAN make the weave. even if only 1/4 of the total Tower + new novices are above her it's more than "a handful" and that group will only grow over time.
In fact according to the Bell Curve there must be as many women out there between Verin and Morvrin/Carlinya/Beonin as there are women between Verin and Daigain **assuming Veirin is half way between Morvrin/Carlinya/Beonin and Daigian**
Which means there are a large number of women out there who can do this, even if they aren't AS ... WO, WF, and Damane are all more truly representative than AS in terms of strength distribution (at least for Sparkers). And don't forget that Cadsuane notes that in times past Romanda/Lelaine/Elaida's strength would have been far more common among AS along with many women between Cadsuane and Moiraine. In times of Tower strength a woman like Verin would have been "middling at best" and may have even been among what they considered "weak" ...
IMO Daigian and many women above her now would not have been considered to have the requisite strength to earn the AS Title in the glory days. Personally I'd bet anyone weaker than Adeleas/Vandene or perhaps even Merilille wouldn't have been considered strong enough. But as Tower prestige dropped and recruiting lagged, we now see many levels of women who maybe shouldn't be considered strong enough.
In addition, using AS strength distribution to make this determination is beyond faulty. RJ stated that 32.5% of women are too weak to be AS, and there are bound to be at least a "handful" of women with an outlier Talent such as Androl, doubt we'll see one, but mathematically they MUST exist.
Verin is far less than 50% of maximum Female strength, you should be able to easily deduce that Egwene is fundamentally wrong in assuming that "only a handful" of women had the strength to do it ... she clearly was only looking at a very small sample of mid-tier AS women when she made the statement. As the "handful" she refers to are at LEAST as strong as Verin, and she is not too far about the Average AS strength.
Even If you assume most AS cannot make the weave work, meaning more than 1/2 of AS are between Daigian and Verin in strength and do not possess a strong enough Talent to compensate for the lack, you still have a pretty large population of women above Verin who CAN make the weave. even if only 1/4 of the total Tower + new novices are above her it's more than "a handful" and that group will only grow over time.
In fact according to the Bell Curve there must be as many women out there between Verin and Morvrin/Carlinya/Beonin as there are women between Verin and Daigain **assuming Veirin is half way between Morvrin/Carlinya/Beonin and Daigian**
Which means there are a large number of women out there who can do this, even if they aren't AS ... WO, WF, and Damane are all more truly representative than AS in terms of strength distribution (at least for Sparkers). And don't forget that Cadsuane notes that in times past Romanda/Lelaine/Elaida's strength would have been far more common among AS along with many women between Cadsuane and Moiraine. In times of Tower strength a woman like Verin would have been "middling at best" and may have even been among what they considered "weak" ...
IMO Daigian and many women above her now would not have been considered to have the requisite strength to earn the AS Title in the glory days. Personally I'd bet anyone weaker than Adeleas/Vandene or perhaps even Merilille wouldn't have been considered strong enough. But as Tower prestige dropped and recruiting lagged, we now see many levels of women who maybe shouldn't be considered strong enough.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
2978 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
698 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1177 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1540 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1177 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1322 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1316 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1198 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1486 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1022 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1222 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1416 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1458 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1206 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1388 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1130 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1240 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1258 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1384 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1255 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1235 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1262 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1205 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1303 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1171 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1251 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1451 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1150 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1227 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1149 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1130 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1253 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1086 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1228 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1136 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1120 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1146 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1072 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1031 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1059 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1174 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1029 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1209 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1126 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1196 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1121 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1211 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1392 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1161 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
926 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1196 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1162 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1181 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1134 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1084 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1114 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
985 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1170 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1084 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1128 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1089 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1128 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1084 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1145 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1152 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1592 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1235 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1139 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1186 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1015 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1113 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1111 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1146 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
503 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1164 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1229 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1235 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1078 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1266 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1118 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1153 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
982 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1167 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1123 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1168 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1168 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
982 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1157 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1135 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1301 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1082 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
724 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1278 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1098 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1214 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1122 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1120 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1077 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1287 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1564 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1564 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1112 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1078 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1225 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1165 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1100 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1358 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1041 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1198 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1238 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1164 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1289 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1188 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1288 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1204 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1167 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1164 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1209 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1216 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1378 Views

