Active Users:343 Time:17/06/2025 05:07:22 PM
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... Onarishma Send a noteboard - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM
Flow affinity and Talent are different things. You are trying to play it both ways. You claim Androl has a Talent, but no one else (despite tons of evidence) does ... regardless or that you STILL CAN'T determine how strong a channeler is based on a gateway's size. There are OBVIOUSLY people who can create larger ones than their strength indicates they should be able to and people with plenty of strength who struggle with it. It doesn't matter WHY ... it exists therefore it makes it impossible to judge strength from a gateway.

Androl is the proof that the Talent trumps strength. Asmodean didn't need to lie, we have the example right here in the text showing us that strength is not the key factor.

Why is this so difficult to accept?


I.e. something that runs through your fingers.

A TALENT is the ability to manipulate a weave.
Being able to use a weave does not mean you have the ability to manipulate it. Which means you do not have to have TALENT to perform it.

There is a CONSISTENT statement by ALL witnesses that except in the case of those with TALENT (Androl being the only person identified) that Gateway size is directly proportional to strength. There is evidence that strength in a power affects the effect of simple weaves. Simple weaves defined as those using one power or possible a limited inclusion of a second. It is possible I am extrapolating too far BUT The Glossary in the EotW states "While Spirit was found equally in men and women, great ability with Earth and/or Fire was found much more often among men, with Water and/or Air among women" It's possible that "great ability" in Spirit was found equally between the sexes and not general ability but considering it was a generalization in the first place and that there has been NO mention of ANYONE being strong in Spirit I'm pretty sure I am correct. I suggest that in simple weaves strength in Spirit equals effectiveness in the weave and that strength in Spirit is directly proportional to the volume of the OP you can hold. Even if you want to argue that Androl and Berowin are strong in Spirit that could fit with the text but arguing that EVERYONE is deficient in "Talent" is ridiculous when observation of the majority of ALL channelers dictates otherwise. Particularly among women who can sense each other's actual strength and see the size of the Gateway produced at the same time.

You have four examples.

1. Androl who no one disputes has a Talent.

2. Reanne who I do dispute no one else has commented on her Gateway size being unusual. And our observation is of a location she has visited often. More importantly Reanne's strength is conjecture so expectations about her gateway size is also conjecture. Though from my memory she is among those strong enough to be AS. As old as she is she might have left the Tower when her strength was considered weak but she might be "average" for today's AS.

3. Aviendha who says flat out that it is a duplicate weave issue

4. Flinn who I need a quote on(I can't find the scene you've been referring to) but obviously the comment didn't stick out as unusual at the time like Androl's blatant oddity. besides that in PoD Flinn is reported as having the largest Gateway of those present.

"Ducking low on Tai’daishar’s neck, Rand heeled the gelding through the largest Gateway. Flinn’s as it happened,..." Gathering Clouds - POD

So not only does he know which one is Flinn's and seeing as they are about to enter a potentially dangerous area they are most likely holding as much of the power as possible. He should be able to tell Flinn's strength and if that Gateway is what he expects.

So out of four only one of them is shown to have a Talent or lack thereof. No one else has been noted in ANY way as being deficient or overly proficient.

Reply to message
Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2907 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1480 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1124 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1265 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1418 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1261 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1145 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1180 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1162 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1283 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 956 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1166 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1192 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1268 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1354 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1164 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 595 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1381 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1145 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1322 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1078 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1162 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1196 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1336 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1167 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1181 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1195 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1158 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1243 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1117 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1122 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1188 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1017 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1167 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1392 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1082 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1159 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1102 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1140 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1085 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1202 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1031 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1233 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1162 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1176 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1081 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1063 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1042 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1084 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 946 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1003 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1118 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 971 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1134 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 949 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1069 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1139 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1114 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1141 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1312 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1104 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1021 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 869 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1136 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1060 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1091 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1109 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1078 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1081 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1029 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1065 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 943 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1113 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1010 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1046 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1045 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1053 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1022 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1093 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1086 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1501 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1059 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1066 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1041 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1097 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 475 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1020 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1062 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1161 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1145 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1020 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 778 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1214 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1054 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1164 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1096 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1108 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1058 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1093 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1130 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 957 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 928 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1030 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1091 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1079 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 693 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1044 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1192 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1018 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1158 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1077 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1047 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1211 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 976 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1471 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1028 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1171 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1128 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1026 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1290 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1086 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1203 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1083 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 968 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1109 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1192 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1119 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1211 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1145 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1166 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 583 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1229 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1145 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1135 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1116 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1086 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1146 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1075 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 950 Views

Reply to Message