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the text is not inconsistent. Onarishma Send a noteboard - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
Like making a ridiculous Gateway. But when fighting Demandred a mixed circle of 3 is no more powerful than he is, or when shielding Rand 4 women couldn't hold him, or when they said it took 6 to shield Logain and any fewer would not have been able too ... yet RJ also states that Talents don't "added" ... I'm arguing that the text is inconsistent not that circles should see an exponential increase in effectiveness ... they just don't always have that kind of increase.


our understanding is.

a circle of three is nothing compared to a circle of 13.

In regard to the power of the Cleansing circles.

First let's cover that the via Asmodean two average women match up to an average man. So the "actual" strength of that circle is approximately 4 women. Rand in his point of view believes that four AS, possibly linked, but possibly not, aren't a challenge. In fact he seems mostly concerned at 6. So if the total strength of the circle facing Demandred was about 4AS or 2AM if you want to compare to those who faced Sammael then technically they couldn't have been more than a nuisance. Even if Rand's estimation of four AS included the possibility of them linking the mixed gender increase to the circle brings the strength up even further than a regular link. This isn't inconsistent by being too strong or by being too weak. In regard to the increase in strength lower exponents aren't that significantly far from the base number 2^3=8 isn't that far from 2x3=6 but 2x13=26 definitely is a far far cry from 2^13=8192. Unless we can figure out the actual formula for a circle's increase in precision general understanding of exponents is all we can go on. So in my estimation, a three person circle with average channelers should not be drastically stronger than Rand or Demandred. I think because it was a mixed circle that they were even a contender.

Second the men and women at the Cleansing are new at it. You can't expect them to do a great job when its their first time.

Moving on to the 6 AS needed to take down Logain and Rand. First there is the evidence that AS use multiple shields to capture men by Rand's six soft points. And this is supported by Cadsuane's decision to fight the bubble of evil separately instead of linking. In a circle non-channeling members are vulnerable. The benefit of the link would require that linked women be close enough to use that link without getting picked off. And while hunting down a powerful man may benefit from super effective weaves, the AS oaths would also restrict them from the kinds of attacks they could make to get to him. I believe the main reason the folks at the Cleansing linked had more to do with the mixed gender of the Forsaken they'd be fighting than it being the best combat strategy.

So to recap the effectiveness of a three person link is at the bottom of the exponential effect and so expecting the Cleansing circles to decimate the Forsaken is expecting too much. And there is at least some evidence that AS strategy does not include linking during a battle and definitely some evidence that men are multi-shielded not shielded by a circle at least not once captured.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2753 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1288 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 968 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1112 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1183 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1100 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 971 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1016 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 991 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1136 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 775 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1004 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1031 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1090 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1191 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1003 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 523 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1186 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 987 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1161 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 890 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 994 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1021 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1165 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 979 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 991 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1028 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 999 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1064 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 963 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 975 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1015 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 843 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1011 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1207 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 902 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1012 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 921 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 960 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 922 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1037 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 870 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1079 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1013 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1008 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 929 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 880 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 865 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 901 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 781 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 844 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 941 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 824 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 962 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 803 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 910 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 941 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 961 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 992 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1137 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 930 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 864 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 716 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 972 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 906 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 912 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 963 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 900 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 905 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 874 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 912 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 796 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 969 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 865 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 898 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 860 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 881 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 875 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 917 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 905 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1368 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 905 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 911 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 889 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 917 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 416 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 877 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 911 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 986 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 995 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 871 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 714 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1047 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 889 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 899 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1006 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 928 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 961 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 905 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 906 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 955 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 801 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 780 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 878 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 940 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 918 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 623 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 891 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1021 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 863 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 990 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 921 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 900 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1036 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 825 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1290 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 856 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1012 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 952 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 870 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1089 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 929 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1038 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 909 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 806 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 920 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1041 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 957 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1010 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 941 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1000 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 502 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1054 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 994 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 988 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 943 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 913 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 987 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 881 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 774 Views

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