Like making a ridiculous Gateway. But when fighting Demandred a mixed circle of 3 is no more powerful than he is, or when shielding Rand 4 women couldn't hold him, or when they said it took 6 to shield Logain and any fewer would not have been able too ... yet RJ also states that Talents don't "added" ... I'm arguing that the text is inconsistent not that circles should see an exponential increase in effectiveness ... they just don't always have that kind of increase.
our understanding is.
a circle of three is nothing compared to a circle of 13.
In regard to the power of the Cleansing circles.
First let's cover that the via Asmodean two average women match up to an average man. So the "actual" strength of that circle is approximately 4 women. Rand in his point of view believes that four AS, possibly linked, but possibly not, aren't a challenge. In fact he seems mostly concerned at 6. So if the total strength of the circle facing Demandred was about 4AS or 2AM if you want to compare to those who faced Sammael then technically they couldn't have been more than a nuisance. Even if Rand's estimation of four AS included the possibility of them linking the mixed gender increase to the circle brings the strength up even further than a regular link. This isn't inconsistent by being too strong or by being too weak. In regard to the increase in strength lower exponents aren't that significantly far from the base number 2^3=8 isn't that far from 2x3=6 but 2x13=26 definitely is a far far cry from 2^13=8192. Unless we can figure out the actual formula for a circle's increase in precision general understanding of exponents is all we can go on. So in my estimation, a three person circle with average channelers should not be drastically stronger than Rand or Demandred. I think because it was a mixed circle that they were even a contender.
Second the men and women at the Cleansing are new at it. You can't expect them to do a great job when its their first time.
Moving on to the 6 AS needed to take down Logain and Rand. First there is the evidence that AS use multiple shields to capture men by Rand's six soft points. And this is supported by Cadsuane's decision to fight the bubble of evil separately instead of linking. In a circle non-channeling members are vulnerable. The benefit of the link would require that linked women be close enough to use that link without getting picked off. And while hunting down a powerful man may benefit from super effective weaves, the AS oaths would also restrict them from the kinds of attacks they could make to get to him. I believe the main reason the folks at the Cleansing linked had more to do with the mixed gender of the Forsaken they'd be fighting than it being the best combat strategy.
So to recap the effectiveness of a three person link is at the bottom of the exponential effect and so expecting the Cleansing circles to decimate the Forsaken is expecting too much. And there is at least some evidence that AS strategy does not include linking during a battle and definitely some evidence that men are multi-shielded not shielded by a circle at least not once captured.
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
2979 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
699 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1178 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1542 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1179 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1324 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1317 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1200 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1487 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1023 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1225 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1417 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1459 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1208 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1389 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1131 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1241 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1258 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1385 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1257 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1236 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1264 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1207 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1303 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1173 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1253 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1453 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1152 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1230 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1150 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1131 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1255 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1088 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1230 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1138 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1122 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1148 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1072 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1033 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1060 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1174 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1030 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1211 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1127 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1196 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1122 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1212 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1394 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1162 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
927 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1197 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1163 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1182 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1136 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1086 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1115 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
986 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1171 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1085 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1129 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1089 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1128 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1087 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1146 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1153 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1593 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1236 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1140 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1188 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1017 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1113 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1112 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1148 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
504 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1165 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1230 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1236 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1079 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1267 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1120 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1155 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
983 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1168 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1124 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1168 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1168 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
983 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1161 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1135 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1302 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1083 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
725 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1280 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1100 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1215 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1124 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1121 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1078 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1289 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1565 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1565 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1113 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1079 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1227 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1166 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1101 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1359 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1042 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1199 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1240 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1166 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1290 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1189 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1288 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1205 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1169 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1166 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1210 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1216 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1379 Views

