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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... LoialT Send a noteboard - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM
I have theorized before that all Gateways lead to TAR. Notice how the weave Egwene used to enter the dream world was tweaked very little to give the actual Traveling weave. I think what happens is that you basically make something of a double Gateway when you Travel. The Gateway actually opens into TAR, and another opens from TAR into the real world. The space between the two TAR locations is actually contracted to nothing (since such things are possible in TAR).

Several aspect of Gateways reinforce this. For one thing, their size has less to do with OP strength than other weaves we've seen. This could indicate that Gateway size might partially correlate to your strength in the Dream, too. For another, to make a Gateway, you need to know your current location, or you can never use it. This is explained if the current location is needed to open a portal to TAR. Within TAR, porting to a new location is easy, and that's why you don't care so much about knowing your destination. Lastly, of course, the Dreamspike is something that blocks a region of TAR, and blocks Traveling in a corresponding region of the real world. That is very telling.

Now, if this is true, then the inconstancies over what can pass through Gateways is explained. Constructs are artificial beings into which souls have been brought in by human channelers. Entering into TAR might simply rip that human made connection. A human souls connection to its body is much stronger, so much so that hurting the "soul construct" that you make when you're dreamwalking can actually hurt the body. And since TAR can rip such connections between body and soul, this may also explain why the Wise Ones insist entering it in the flesh is wrong.

On the flip side, what does and doesn't enter through a gateway might actually be at the command of the person who makes it. It could be that the dimensionless space between the two locations linked by the Gateway is actually of TAR, and anything passing through that space would be subject to the rules of TAR. So the lack of strong winds could entirely be a result of channelers of this Age simply not wishing for the wind. One the flip side, when Aviendha made her first Gateway, she never knew about this, so she simply didn't think to prevent wind and snow from coming through. Same with Egwene when she opened her first Gateway into the Waste. She felt a blast of heat, and if heat can travel through a Gateway, so can wind. That it usually doesn't is proof that there is inconsistency in how this works, which can be explained by this being under the control of the individual channelers.


I think you are definitely correct. This would also help further explain why it may soon be impossible to travel as the Pattern begins to go crazy. It is not just that you aren't sure where you're going, it's that TAR, which is very sensitive to ephemeral change would grow rather slippery if those solid aspects of the world started radically changing too.

Still, I am not sure about the physics issues. It seems like RJ's original ideas about Traveling, at least in EotW and tGH were that it was more like teleporting. He may not have thought this through quite as much as he thought about TAR, the Ways, Portal Stones until later...
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2907 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1482 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1124 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1266 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1418 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1263 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1147 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1182 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1164 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1285 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 958 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1167 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1194 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1270 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1356 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1165 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 595 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1382 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1147 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1323 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1079 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1162 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1198 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1338 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1169 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1183 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1197 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1160 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1245 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1119 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1123 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1189 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1018 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1168 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1394 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1084 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1161 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1102 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1142 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1085 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1203 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1033 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1236 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1164 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1178 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1081 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1065 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1044 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1086 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 947 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1005 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1119 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 972 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1136 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 951 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1071 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1141 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1116 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1142 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1314 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1105 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1023 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 870 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1137 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1060 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1093 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1111 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1079 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1083 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1031 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1066 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 945 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1114 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1012 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1048 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1047 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1055 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1024 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1093 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1088 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1502 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1061 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1067 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1042 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1099 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 475 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1022 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1063 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1163 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1146 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1022 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 778 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1216 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1063 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1056 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1166 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1098 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1109 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1059 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1095 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1131 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 958 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 929 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1032 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1093 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1081 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 693 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1046 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1193 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1019 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1159 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1078 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1048 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1212 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 978 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1473 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1029 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1173 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1130 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1027 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1292 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1088 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1205 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1084 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 969 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1111 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1194 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1121 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1213 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1146 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1167 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 583 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1231 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1147 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1137 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1117 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1087 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1147 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1076 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 952 Views

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