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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... LoialT Send a noteboard - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM
I have theorized before that all Gateways lead to TAR. Notice how the weave Egwene used to enter the dream world was tweaked very little to give the actual Traveling weave. I think what happens is that you basically make something of a double Gateway when you Travel. The Gateway actually opens into TAR, and another opens from TAR into the real world. The space between the two TAR locations is actually contracted to nothing (since such things are possible in TAR).

Several aspect of Gateways reinforce this. For one thing, their size has less to do with OP strength than other weaves we've seen. This could indicate that Gateway size might partially correlate to your strength in the Dream, too. For another, to make a Gateway, you need to know your current location, or you can never use it. This is explained if the current location is needed to open a portal to TAR. Within TAR, porting to a new location is easy, and that's why you don't care so much about knowing your destination. Lastly, of course, the Dreamspike is something that blocks a region of TAR, and blocks Traveling in a corresponding region of the real world. That is very telling.

Now, if this is true, then the inconstancies over what can pass through Gateways is explained. Constructs are artificial beings into which souls have been brought in by human channelers. Entering into TAR might simply rip that human made connection. A human souls connection to its body is much stronger, so much so that hurting the "soul construct" that you make when you're dreamwalking can actually hurt the body. And since TAR can rip such connections between body and soul, this may also explain why the Wise Ones insist entering it in the flesh is wrong.

On the flip side, what does and doesn't enter through a gateway might actually be at the command of the person who makes it. It could be that the dimensionless space between the two locations linked by the Gateway is actually of TAR, and anything passing through that space would be subject to the rules of TAR. So the lack of strong winds could entirely be a result of channelers of this Age simply not wishing for the wind. One the flip side, when Aviendha made her first Gateway, she never knew about this, so she simply didn't think to prevent wind and snow from coming through. Same with Egwene when she opened her first Gateway into the Waste. She felt a blast of heat, and if heat can travel through a Gateway, so can wind. That it usually doesn't is proof that there is inconsistency in how this works, which can be explained by this being under the control of the individual channelers.


I think you are definitely correct. This would also help further explain why it may soon be impossible to travel as the Pattern begins to go crazy. It is not just that you aren't sure where you're going, it's that TAR, which is very sensitive to ephemeral change would grow rather slippery if those solid aspects of the world started radically changing too.

Still, I am not sure about the physics issues. It seems like RJ's original ideas about Traveling, at least in EotW and tGH were that it was more like teleporting. He may not have thought this through quite as much as he thought about TAR, the Ways, Portal Stones until later...
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3085 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1644 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1304 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1428 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1665 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1407 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1307 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1335 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1334 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1470 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1130 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1329 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1366 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1444 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1534 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1356 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 672 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1577 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1342 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1512 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1235 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1332 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1380 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1488 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1354 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1343 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1367 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1308 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1407 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1278 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1298 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1367 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1238 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1339 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1564 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1267 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1342 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1247 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1278 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1239 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1368 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1196 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1407 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1341 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1333 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1237 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1261 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1220 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1247 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1140 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1167 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1272 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1138 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1314 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1111 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1242 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1296 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1324 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1329 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1481 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1269 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1189 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1064 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1294 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1231 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1274 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1296 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1251 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1244 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1194 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1232 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1098 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1287 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1199 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1226 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1199 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1247 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1209 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1253 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1270 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1717 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1261 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1255 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1208 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1248 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 550 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1177 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1262 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1326 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1351 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1187 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 857 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1371 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1226 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1220 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1357 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1256 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1276 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1248 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1283 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1312 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1126 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1089 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1189 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1254 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1240 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 782 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1216 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1400 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1211 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1322 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1216 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1228 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1398 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1147 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1687 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1178 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1341 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1338 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1195 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1475 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1246 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1403 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1266 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1147 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1310 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1353 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1277 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1405 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1296 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1345 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 657 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1400 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1312 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1338 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1289 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1302 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1371 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1241 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1124 Views

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