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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... DomA Send a noteboard - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
I have theorized before that all Gateways lead to TAR. Notice how the weave Egwene used to enter the dream world was tweaked very little to give the actual Traveling weave. I think what happens is that you basically make something of a double Gateway when you Travel. The Gateway actually opens into TAR, and another opens from TAR into the real world. The space between the two TAR locations is actually contracted to nothing (since such things are possible in TAR).


I agree there's obviously a relationship between Travelling and TAR, but I'm less sure of the mechanics, but it's possible indeed that the Gateway opens in TAR, and it's using the properties of TAR that two locations are made the same, or that a hole is made between the two. I suspect gateway size is a matter of strength/talent with Spirit, and perhaps strength of will. There is a corrolation between global raw strength and gateways, but it's even more a specific flow and talent handling it which would be the most important factor.

Based on what happened with Perrin in TAR, his incapacity to think himself out of the dreamspike zone, I had this notion that perhaps the dreamspike is some sort of AI reproducing "human will" and which shifts or twist in a small way the reflection of an area of the real world. It would mean the reflection between TAR and the RL isn't synchronized anymore in a limited perimeter (the dreamspike would have a limit of how far it can alter TAR and maintain these changes).

This would mean that if you know how exactly the reflection of the RW perimeter in TAR is shifted by the dreamspike - and they all seem to have a unique sequence - you could alter your Gateway weave accordingly to compensate, what Moridin referred to as "knowing the key", and thus you could Travel to and from the place normally.

For one thing, their size has less to do with OP strength than other weaves we've seen.


Another skill for which we've seen this is shielding, and again it's something of Spirit.

Now, if this is true, then the inconstancies over what can pass through Gateways is explained. Constructs are artificial beings into which souls have been brought in by human channelers. Entering into TAR might simply rip that human made connection.


I doubt it's the right explanation. Don't forget Trollocs breed normally, and Myrddraal happened naturally as a throwback. If there was any "soul binding" involved, it occured with the original specimens only and truth be told I doubt there's any "soul binding" involved... I think the geneticians simply created viable lifeforms and those being attracted a soul from the soul pool "naturally".

IMO, the reason why constructs can't use Traveling Gateways is that their souls doesn't correspond to what they really are physically. The problem might be when you exit: to "TAR" you're not a Trolloc but a human or animal. It can't hold you together, so to speak, it tries to revert you to what you should be, and you die. Moridin seems to have a trick to bring Shadowspawn to TAR (we could debate if those seen with Ishamael in the early series were real or TAR/dreamshards creations, but Aran'gar in KOD at least never questionned the reality of the Zomoran, perhaps snatching them there from their dreams.) It could also be that it's "double-gateways" which kill Shadowspawn, gateways opening in and out of TAR at the same time, but that they can pass through a "single-gateway" leading only to or out of TAR, not two locations. But it's doubtful as they can't use Skimming Gateways either.


That it usually doesn't is proof that there is inconsistency in how this works, which can be explained by this being under the control of the individual channelers.


It's pretty clear elements can pass through a gateway, the question is more why a difference in air pressure in the two locations doesn't create the physical phenomenons it should. This could be because the two sides of a gateway aren't connected physically as we could presume, as there's TAR standing in-between. Weather/elements act strangely in TAR.

This message last edited by DomA on 01/10/2012 at 09:05:00 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3029 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1589 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1238 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1369 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1569 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1356 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1250 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1280 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1270 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1401 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1070 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1271 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1311 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1382 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1470 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1296 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 647 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1512 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1284 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1436 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1177 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1278 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1311 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1425 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1301 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1287 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1303 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1251 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1346 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1212 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1221 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1303 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1180 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1276 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1497 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1199 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1272 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1193 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1225 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1179 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1307 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1140 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1356 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1277 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1277 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1182 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1197 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1160 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1182 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1073 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1105 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1212 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1083 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1253 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1186 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1237 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1263 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1265 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1430 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1206 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1133 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1001 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1237 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1166 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1217 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1240 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1188 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1189 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1137 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1165 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1042 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1221 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1137 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1174 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1137 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1176 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1142 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1192 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1202 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1650 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1194 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1188 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1158 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1187 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 518 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1113 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1206 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1274 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1288 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1128 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 829 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1313 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1171 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1157 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1299 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1206 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1214 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1184 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1214 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1249 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1074 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1022 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1129 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1201 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1178 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 743 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1155 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1332 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1145 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1264 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1161 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1165 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1337 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1084 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1616 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1122 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1280 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1281 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1143 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1419 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1190 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1322 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1201 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1099 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1247 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1282 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1211 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1338 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1234 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1290 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 629 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1338 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1246 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1279 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1233 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1234 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1307 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1175 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1065 Views

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