Siuan states that despite being less than half her original strength her healing ability had not changed at all.
So from poor healer to poor healer? Groundbreaking...
Aviendha and Flinn both struggle with Traveling.
That isn't inability. Flinn can actually make gateways that can pass a cart. That is on par with Androl.
Nynaeve cannot make a Ter'angreal.
That's because its an abstract Talent like Dreaming or Listening to the Wind. You either have it or you don't. You can't just pick up a sa'angreal and suddenly identify ter'angreal like Aviendha does.
Rand has almost no healing ability.
Thats not inability, once again. I promise you that if he needs to Heal someone in the LB we will see it.
Conversely, Ishamael is stunned by the WF's ability with weather ... Unless you think he's only talking about Talaan this is an example where clearly weaker Channelers have created OP effects far gireater than expected. They only needed to link in order to use the BotW and what they did with that was also clearly well beyond what the FS thought should be possible. This speaks to both exceptional Talent and exceptional skill.
They do not have a Talent with the weather. They are well practiced in flows of Air. Elayne's ability with Air was greatly improved after a few lessons. That isn't Talent. That's practice and technique.
Go ahead and say it was strength that made the difference there, I'm sure Rand will rush out, grab a couple of weak angreal and form a quick circle and beat the DO 

And strangely enough they demanded the strongest women possible for the BoW
No that was skill. The WF are very skilled with Air and probably Water too. It comes from generations of practice.Egwene did not Heal Gawyn. She performed Healing weaves on him, but they were essentially ineffective. Her solution wasn't to grab an angreal and try to heal him it was to find a woman with more Talent to do the job. No amount of extra power was going to save Gawyn. This isn't too different from when Sorilea was able to make the gateway weave, but could not make it work. Unlike Androl, she doesn't have a strong enough Talent to make the weave function enough to be useful. Nor does Egwene have enough Talent to be an effective Healer.
Siuan is an average healer ... She managed to save Brynes soldiers which is significantly more than Sheriam, Egwene or Elayne can manage. The FACT that her ability to Heal changed not at all is because Talent doesn't change, it just is what it is. The Talent defines how much Power is necessary to make the weaves work, but no amount of additional power will let you have a greater effect than your Talent allows. S if you get a greater effect when you have an angreal it follows that your Talent is strong enough to continue to let you have an increased effect.
Flinn is one of the stronger Asha'man and openly states he has difficulty with Traveling. Androl can make a gateway large enou for a WAGON ... Androl makes gateways like Rands! Flinn has a weaker Talent for Traveling and therefor struggles with the weave despite being able to add power to it. His comment makes it clear that based on his strength he thinks he should be able to make one larger.
Rand may well be an exception now that he is "super Rand" ... After what he did at Maradon I won't rule anything out.
Every single Talent we have seen so far has shown us degrees of ability ... There are no "abstract" Talents. Like every other Talent, Foretelling or Dreaming or Ter'angreal ability, if the Talent is there an individual will have a set amount of ability with it. For all we know Nynaeve and Aviendha have the same Talent as Elayne, but to different degrees. Nynaeve gets "feelings" Aviendha can sense "purpose" and Elayne seems to be able to sense "form" therefore she can reproduce them to a degree. Certainly the Talents that require no weaves operate differently, but it doesn't change that Elaida had a weak FT Talent and Nicola a strong FT Talent.
I would say every Talent we have seen that requires specific weaves are incredibly common Talents, but the variation in the Talent defines how well the weave is executed. Thus you have wildly swinging variations on the Healing Talent that doesn't seem to have any correlation to OP Strength. Traveling looks to be the same ... Else why bother showing Androl or tell us Flinn can't make a gateway as large as his OP strength says he should? There is now proof that the ability to Travel is not dependent on OP strength, the stronger the Talent the weaker the Channeler can be and still pull off the weave. Clearly an individual with "average" Talent needs to dedicate a certain amount of OP into the weave to give it enough juice to function, but that isn't surprising ... We've seen plenty of weaves that require a lot of power to operate. But assuming how large a gateway is will give you even a general sense of a Channelers strength is a mistake as a very strong Channeler may only be able to create a small personal gateway if they have a weak Talent. And like everything else in WoT this is probably on the rare side. Outliers like Androl are obviously very rare, but what about someone like Beonin? IIRC she was able to create a quite large gateway... Much larger than she should have been able too ... Very easy to think she may have a disproportionate Talent for her strength. Sort of like Samitsu being "as effective as a circle" with Healing.
The WF have essentially inbred for 3000+ years and have become highly specialized in both knowledge and in genetic abilities. Over time they would have bred the Talent as well as the flow affinity into almost every woman. And please note it was the strength obsessed AS who made the call on the strongest women. It's clear that most Channelers from the modern era have not really pieced together that strength doesn't make much difference with Talents ... If they knew that they may have stepped back and given only WF a place in the use of the Bowl. Just like they did in the AoL ... Choose people for a circle based on their abilities rather than on strength.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 04/10/2012 at 08:01:44 PM
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
2979 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
699 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1178 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1542 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1179 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1324 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1319 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1200 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1489 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1023 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1225 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1419 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1461 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1210 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1389 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1260 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1387 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1259 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1264 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1207 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1305 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1173 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1255 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1453 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1154 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1152 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1131 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1138 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1122 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1150 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1074 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1211 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1129 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1198 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1122 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1212 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1394 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1162 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
929 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1199 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1165 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1184 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1136 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1086 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1117 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
988 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1173 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1087 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1130 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1091 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1130 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1089 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1146 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1155 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1594 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1236 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1140 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1188 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1019 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1112 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
504 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1167 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1232 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1236 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1081 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1269 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1121 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1155 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
985 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1170 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1126 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1170 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1170 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
985 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1161 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1137 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1302 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1085 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
725 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1282 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1102 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1217 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1126 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1123 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1078 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1291 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1565 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1565 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1115 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1079 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1227 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1166 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1101 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1361 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1044 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1199 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1240 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1166 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1292 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1189 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1290 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1206 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1169 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1166 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1212 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1218 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1379 Views
