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Re-read some stuff darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
Siuan states that despite being less than half her original strength her healing ability had not changed at all.

So from poor healer to poor healer? Groundbreaking...

Aviendha and Flinn both struggle with Traveling.

That isn't inability. Flinn can actually make gateways that can pass a cart. That is on par with Androl.

Nynaeve cannot make a Ter'angreal.

That's because its an abstract Talent like Dreaming or Listening to the Wind. You either have it or you don't. You can't just pick up a sa'angreal and suddenly identify ter'angreal like Aviendha does.

Rand has almost no healing ability.

Thats not inability, once again. I promise you that if he needs to Heal someone in the LB we will see it.

Conversely, Ishamael is stunned by the WF's ability with weather ... Unless you think he's only talking about Talaan this is an example where clearly weaker Channelers have created OP effects far gireater than expected. They only needed to link in order to use the BotW and what they did with that was also clearly well beyond what the FS thought should be possible. This speaks to both exceptional Talent and exceptional skill.

They do not have a Talent with the weather. They are well practiced in flows of Air. Elayne's ability with Air was greatly improved after a few lessons. That isn't Talent. That's practice and technique.

Go ahead and say it was strength that made the difference there, I'm sure Rand will rush out, grab a couple of weak angreal and form a quick circle and beat the DO :P

And strangely enough they demanded the strongest women possible for the BoW ;) No that was skill. The WF are very skilled with Air and probably Water too. It comes from generations of practice.


Egwene did not Heal Gawyn. She performed Healing weaves on him, but they were essentially ineffective. Her solution wasn't to grab an angreal and try to heal him it was to find a woman with more Talent to do the job. No amount of extra power was going to save Gawyn. This isn't too different from when Sorilea was able to make the gateway weave, but could not make it work. Unlike Androl, she doesn't have a strong enough Talent to make the weave function enough to be useful. Nor does Egwene have enough Talent to be an effective Healer.

Siuan is an average healer ... She managed to save Brynes soldiers which is significantly more than Sheriam, Egwene or Elayne can manage. The FACT that her ability to Heal changed not at all is because Talent doesn't change, it just is what it is. The Talent defines how much Power is necessary to make the weaves work, but no amount of additional power will let you have a greater effect than your Talent allows. S if you get a greater effect when you have an angreal it follows that your Talent is strong enough to continue to let you have an increased effect.

Flinn is one of the stronger Asha'man and openly states he has difficulty with Traveling. Androl can make a gateway large enou for a WAGON ... Androl makes gateways like Rands! Flinn has a weaker Talent for Traveling and therefor struggles with the weave despite being able to add power to it. His comment makes it clear that based on his strength he thinks he should be able to make one larger.

Rand may well be an exception now that he is "super Rand" ... After what he did at Maradon I won't rule anything out.

Every single Talent we have seen so far has shown us degrees of ability ... There are no "abstract" Talents. Like every other Talent, Foretelling or Dreaming or Ter'angreal ability, if the Talent is there an individual will have a set amount of ability with it. For all we know Nynaeve and Aviendha have the same Talent as Elayne, but to different degrees. Nynaeve gets "feelings" Aviendha can sense "purpose" and Elayne seems to be able to sense "form" therefore she can reproduce them to a degree. Certainly the Talents that require no weaves operate differently, but it doesn't change that Elaida had a weak FT Talent and Nicola a strong FT Talent.

I would say every Talent we have seen that requires specific weaves are incredibly common Talents, but the variation in the Talent defines how well the weave is executed. Thus you have wildly swinging variations on the Healing Talent that doesn't seem to have any correlation to OP Strength. Traveling looks to be the same ... Else why bother showing Androl or tell us Flinn can't make a gateway as large as his OP strength says he should? There is now proof that the ability to Travel is not dependent on OP strength, the stronger the Talent the weaker the Channeler can be and still pull off the weave. Clearly an individual with "average" Talent needs to dedicate a certain amount of OP into the weave to give it enough juice to function, but that isn't surprising ... We've seen plenty of weaves that require a lot of power to operate. But assuming how large a gateway is will give you even a general sense of a Channelers strength is a mistake as a very strong Channeler may only be able to create a small personal gateway if they have a weak Talent. And like everything else in WoT this is probably on the rare side. Outliers like Androl are obviously very rare, but what about someone like Beonin? IIRC she was able to create a quite large gateway... Much larger than she should have been able too ... Very easy to think she may have a disproportionate Talent for her strength. Sort of like Samitsu being "as effective as a circle" with Healing.

The WF have essentially inbred for 3000+ years and have become highly specialized in both knowledge and in genetic abilities. Over time they would have bred the Talent as well as the flow affinity into almost every woman. And please note it was the strength obsessed AS who made the call on the strongest women. It's clear that most Channelers from the modern era have not really pieced together that strength doesn't make much difference with Talents ... If they knew that they may have stepped back and given only WF a place in the use of the Bowl. Just like they did in the AoL ... Choose people for a circle based on their abilities rather than on strength.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 04/10/2012 at 08:01:44 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3030 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1589 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1239 Views
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Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1571 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1358 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1250 Views
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Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1402 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1070 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1271 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1312 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1384 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1470 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1296 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 647 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1512 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1284 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1437 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1178 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1278 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1311 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1426 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1302 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1288 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1304 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1251 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1346 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1213 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1222 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1305 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1180 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1276 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1498 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1200 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1273 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1195 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1225 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1179 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1307 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1142 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1356 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1278 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1277 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1184 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1199 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1162 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1184 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1075 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1107 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1212 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1083 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1256 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1053 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1186 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1239 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1264 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1266 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1432 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1206 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1133 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1003 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1238 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1168 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1217 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1240 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1188 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1189 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1138 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1165 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1043 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1223 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1137 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1174 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1138 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1176 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1144 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1194 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1203 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1650 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1196 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1189 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1158 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1187 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 518 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1115 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1206 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1276 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1288 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1128 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 829 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1313 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1171 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1157 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1300 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1207 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1214 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1185 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1217 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1249 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1075 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1023 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1129 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1201 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1178 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 743 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1155 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1332 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1145 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1265 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1162 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1166 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1337 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1085 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1616 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1122 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1280 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1282 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1143 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1420 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1191 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1324 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1201 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1099 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1248 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1283 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1211 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1341 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1234 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1292 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 629 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1339 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1249 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1280 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1234 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1234 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1307 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1176 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1066 Views

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