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Trollocs have dreams Onarishma Send a noteboard - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM

I agree there's obviously a relationship between Travelling and TAR, but I'm less sure of the mechanics, but it's possible indeed that the Gateway opens in TAR, and it's using the properties of TAR that two locations are made the same, or that a hole is made between the two. I suspect gateway size is a matter of strength/talent with Spirit, and perhaps strength of will. There is a corrolation between global raw strength and gateways, but it's even more a specific flow and talent handling it which would be the most important factor.

Early books also say that there's a correlation between strength in Spririt and Dreaming, though this doesn't fit with people like Bair.
Based on what happened with Perrin in TAR, his incapacity to think himself out of the dreamspike zone, I had this notion that perhaps the dreamspike is some sort of AI reproducing "human will" and which shifts or twist in a small way the reflection of an area of the real world. It would mean the reflection between TAR and the RL isn't synchronized anymore in a limited perimeter (the dreamspike would have a limit of how far it can alter TAR and maintain these changes).

This would mean that if you know how exactly the reflection of the RW perimeter in TAR is shifted by the dreamspike - and they all seem to have a unique sequence - you could alter your Gateway weave accordingly to compensate, what Moridin referred to as "knowing the key", and thus you could Travel to and from the place normally.

Yup. that was exactly what I thought. Its like the Dramspike messes with the "GPS location" of a place in TAR. It resembles its physical correlate, but something is scrambled.

Another skill for which we've seen this is shielding, and again it's something of Spirit.

Yup.

I doubt it's the right explanation. Don't forget Trollocs breed normally, and Myrddraal happened naturally as a throwback. If there was any "soul binding" involved, it occured with the original specimens only and truth be told I doubt there's any "soul binding" involved... I think the geneticians simply created viable lifeforms and those being attracted a soul from the soul pool "naturally".

But we don't know if the seemingly "normal" birth of Trollocs has something to do with the True Power. What if its the TP in them that allows fetal Trollocs to snag a soul (or whenever a soul is fitted to a body). Just because they seem normal in their breeding doesn't mean they're breeding naturally. After all, the idea of a soul being "attracted" to a TP tainted body seems not very possible to me. The DO also seems to have a "soul pool" of his own. He may well be powering Trolloc births through that.
IMO, the reason why constructs can't use Traveling Gateways is that their souls doesn't correspond to what they really are physically. The problem might be when you exit: to "TAR" you're not a Trolloc but a human or animal. It can't hold you together, so to speak, it tries to revert you to what you should be, and you die. Moridin seems to have a trick to bring Shadowspawn to TAR (we could debate if those seen with Ishamael in the early series were real or TAR/dreamshards creations, but Aran'gar in KOD at least never questionned the reality of the Zomoran, perhaps snatching them there from their dreams.) It could also be that it's "double-gateways" which kill Shadowspawn, gateways opening in and out of TAR at the same time, but that they can pass through a "single-gateway" leading only to or out of TAR, not two locations. But it's doubtful as they can't use Skimming Gateways either.

This works too. Of note here is that Myrdraal and Trollocs (?) don't have dreams. On the flipside, the Green Man seems to have been in charge of a pocket dimension with very TAR like properties, and seemed to have no problems controlling it.

As for the Zomoran, they may be like the Gholam that Rand said could pass through Gateways. While it is perfectly possible this was a Brandon invention, nothing says this isn't strictly true either.

However, those Zomoran could have been Moridin's constructs in his Dreamshard. Then, for all intents and purposes they're real.

It's pretty clear elements can pass through a gateway, the question is more why a difference in air pressure in the two locations doesn't create the physical phenomenons it should. This could be because the two sides of a gateway aren't connected physically as we could presume, as there's TAR standing in-between. Weather/elements act strangely in TAR.

It could also be that elements can be stopped from passing through a Gateway, if its creator so wishes.
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Problems with gateways Narg - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2979 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM* Tom - 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM 699 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd... Narg - 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM 1178 Views
It's been discussed before... DomA - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1542 Views
I would agree with this A Deathwatch Guard - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1179 Views
Re: I would agree with this DomA - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1324 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well darius_sedai - 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM 1319 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too) Onarishma - 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM 1200 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: Narg - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1489 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? darius_sedai - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1310 Views
There is echooff - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1198 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? Marshall - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1237 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? DomA - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1228 Views
Here's a neat idea Marshall - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1350 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1024 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it Sidious - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1225 Views
Absurd question... fionwe1987 - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1246 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? Sidious - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1327 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... fionwe1987 - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1419 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... LoialT - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1250 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* Dreadlord - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 629 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... DomA - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1461 Views
Androl throws a kink in this darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1210 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this DomA - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1391 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1132 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say Sidious - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1243 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1260 Views
No I think they're more about strength Sidious - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1387 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1259 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1238 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this fionwe1987 - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1264 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1207 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1305 Views
She did Heal him Sidious - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1173 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. Onarishma - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1179 Views
Re-read some stuff darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1255 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff Sidious - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1123 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1240 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1453 Views
But his thought processes are sound Sidious - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1154 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1230 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS Sidious - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1152 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1191 Views
Ummm... fionwe1987 - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1132 Views
Re: Ummm... Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1255 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1088 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind DomA - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1307 Views
I wasn't being very clear darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1228 Views
I think he did Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1230 Views
Maybe darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1142 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1138 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1121 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! Onarishma - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1138 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM 1122 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM 1150 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM 1074 Views
Exactly... fionwe1987 - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1033 Views
Re: Exactly... Sidious - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1062 Views
Re: Exactly... fionwe1987 - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1176 Views
AND... darius_sedai - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1031 Views
Re: AND... Sidious - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1211 Views
Again THANK YOU! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 996 Views
Re: AND... darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1129 Views
Re: AND... Sidious - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1198 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect darius_sedai - 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM 1124 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it Sidious - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1214 Views
TY!!! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1223 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1394 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise Sidious - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1162 Views
Are you reading mine? darius_sedai - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1083 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 929 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1199 Views
THANK YOU!!! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1124 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct Onarishma - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1165 Views
to the point on the Circle darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1184 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1136 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1149 Views
I've been thinking about this darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1086 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1117 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 988 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... fionwe1987 - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1173 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1087 Views
Highly doubtful... fionwe1987 - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1131 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1091 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1130 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1089 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1146 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1155 Views
the text is not inconsistent. Onarishma - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1594 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that! darius_sedai - 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM 1237 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level Onarishma - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1142 Views
Not so much darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1144 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM 1188 Views
I've given this point some thought too ... It's a dicey subject darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:22:23 AM 1047 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM 1019 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM 1115 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle Onarishma - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1113 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1148 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 504 Views
Didn't I just say that? darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1075 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... Onarishma - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1167 Views
There is so much evidence against this darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1232 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. Onarishma - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1236 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. fionwe1987 - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1081 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 811 Views
He's referring to skimming Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1269 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1121 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1118 Views
We are close enough on this point darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1241 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. Onarishma - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1155 Views
Please explain Androl then darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1170 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1126 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent darius_sedai - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1170 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... Onarishma - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1205 Views
No it's not darius_sedai - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1021 Views
fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 985 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM 1161 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM 1137 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within Onarishma - 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM 1302 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1085 Views
How do you know there's a difference? Sidious - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1156 Views
darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1136 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* Onarishma - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 725 Views
Not really darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1110 Views
I agree with this PoV Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1282 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1102 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1217 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1126 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there DomA - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1123 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM 1080 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... Onarishma - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1291 Views
That has no relevance here darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1036 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1566 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM 1115 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1079 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1227 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM 1168 Views
I noticed that... fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1239 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1102 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1361 Views
On Healing and Yellows... fionwe1987 - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1147 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... DomA - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1266 Views
True darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1151 Views
Life skills and OP skills... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1044 Views
Or the reverse could be true darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1201 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true Sidious - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1240 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1166 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time DomA - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1292 Views
The point is the same regardless darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1189 Views
Here's an answer to your original question Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1249 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 613 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true DomA - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1290 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1206 Views
I know DomA - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1234 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1194 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented. Onarishma - 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM 1170 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1166 Views
Trollocs have dreams Onarishma - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1236 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... DomA - 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM 1212 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? LoialT - 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM 1218 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? DomA - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM 1379 Views
XKCD is on the case! Tor - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1134 Views
Re: Problems with gateways Onarishma - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1015 Views
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