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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? DomA Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
I can't remember, but I thought Avendesora was the only chora to survive and that they gave a cutting to the Cairhienen. I suppose even if this was the case that it wouldn't count as reproduction, just a cloning, but it does suggest one way for some constructs to make copies (or have copies made).


Avendesora is either OT for, or a later deformation of (can't be sure as we don't know the OT rules for forming words) of the OT "aviende chora" (Aviendha's name seems to be related to it too, incidentally), ie: chora tree(s). The Aiel brought potted cuttings with them from Paraan Disan (we see the Da'shain with them in TSR) - the one surviving cutting must have grown into "Avendesora". We know from the BWB that chora trees were constructs, and we know they're sterile and don't produce seeds. They're multiplied by making cuttings and making those grow roots. That's how the sappling given to Cairhien was grown.

I am also curious about Someshta... He says he remembers Wolfbrothers when he meets Perrin, but this must mean he is even older than the AOL (or at least was already very old by its end)


That's most unlikely. The BWB, and RJ, told us Nyms were Constructs from the AOL. The oddities are probably to put on this being the first book and RJ didn't have everything aligned perfectly about the back story elements.


He also remarks that it's been TWO thousand years since he's been under Avendesora. Was this a mistake on RJ's part, or did he have something to do with Rhuidean after being set up to guard to the Eye?


My guess is that Someshta is referring to another "avendesora", i.e: a chora tree that survived until the Trolloc Wars before the Nym lost it to the Blight.


Finally, you recently suggested that Nakomi and the Green Man may have been ancient gods predating the Wheel cosmology. Did you mean that the Nym were ancient gods, or that they were created to celebrate that tradition?


The later. My idea derives both from RJ's notion that facts and legends become mixed together and from a remark of LTT who conceive of the Creator as a Gardener in KOD. So one of my ideas was that the Nym were made for practical purposes, but their appearance was modelled in honor of an ancient deity associated with the male principle of the Creator, in the days before the OP was discovered and the Aes Sedai or their forerunners developped a new cosmology with the Creator's energy being the sum of a male and female half, the world being a Pattern etc. The theory was that over time after the Breaking Nym were forgotten and Someshta became the subject of legends, and confused with The Green Man. and yeah, the idea was that Nakomi may have been the female counterpart of the Gardener in the Great Serpent cosmology (but has no relation to Nym or constructs, she's forgotten by all but perhaps scholars or some WO... and probably a theologian like Elan Morin).

That's not my only idea for the origins of Nakomi though. Long before chapter 1 confirmed the name was ancient, I speculated she may have been:

a) an important Da'shain Aiel Madhi from the days of the WoS/Breaking. I'm convinced the Da'shain had an equivalent of what became the Wise Ones, and I'm pretty convinced Madhi (Seeker, as in Seeker in the Dream) was their original title (because we know the meaning of Madhi is a synonym of Wisdom in some areas). So Nakomi may have been a Jenn Aiel WO involved in the compact at Rhuidean. Some WO like Bair may have seen her when they went through the Columns, WO may or not see her depending if their ancestor interacted or not with her. It could mean the apparation of Nakomi to a WO on the eve of TG may have been part of the Columns's original programming.

b) Nakomi may be even more ancient and either be the first Dreamer among the Dai'shain Aiel or even be the founder of the Way of the Leaf.

c) She's even more ancient than this and this used to be a name for the female deity.

Either way it doesn't mean someone didn't borrow the name on purpose, of course. When Bair reveals who that ancient Nakomi was, we'll have a better idea.

Nakomi is the name of a Mother Goddess in Amerindian mythology (associated to the moon). She's the one who taught shamans to make "Dreamcatchers". Of course she would hardly be the only character whose name is taken from a Goddess and it doesn't prove in any way that's a deity's name in WOT (it could be perfectly mundane, like Tuon whose second name is Kore, aka Perséphone, the daughter of the mother Goddess Demeter, and is now name after the roman Goddess Fortuna). She could be any of the above, and a fourth distinct possibility is that this was a new alias of Cyndane, who's used the name of a RW deity before (Selene, a moon goddess... like Nakomi is). It's a distinct possibility what happened in Rhuidean is a scheme of Moridin or Cyndane, but have motives to use Aviendha for a revenge (Moridin promised if the Bowl of Winds was used and the DO's plans disrupted, those responsible would "live to pay". Elayne, the Kinswomen and seemingly the WF have paid, Aviendha and Nynaeve have so far escaped Moridin's revenge... for now, and that we know...).

This message last edited by DomA on 06/10/2012 at 10:09:08 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3107 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1663 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1330 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1448 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1693 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1423 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1331 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1364 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1353 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1492 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1150 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1351 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1391 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1466 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1555 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1378 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 685 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1593 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1366 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1531 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1255 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1347 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1403 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1516 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1375 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1370 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1387 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1331 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1434 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1301 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1320 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1397 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1257 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1361 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1582 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1293 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1358 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1271 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1297 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1258 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1390 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1212 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1431 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1358 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1349 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1255 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1275 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1243 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1267 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1160 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1193 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1287 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1155 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1340 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1135 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1259 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1312 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1342 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1348 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1500 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1286 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1211 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1085 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1313 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1253 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1293 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1316 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1269 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1265 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1213 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1250 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1120 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1314 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1214 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1249 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1221 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1266 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1232 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1279 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1291 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1732 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1280 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1271 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1234 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1266 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 560 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1202 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1282 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1348 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1370 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1210 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 869 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1387 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1250 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1238 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1382 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1276 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1298 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1267 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1302 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1329 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1145 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1106 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1215 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1271 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1259 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 792 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1234 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1417 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1228 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1337 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1237 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1244 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1425 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1166 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1714 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1196 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1368 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1361 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1218 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1502 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1267 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1420 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1292 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1167 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1329 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1372 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1296 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1424 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1318 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1372 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 668 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1423 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1334 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1353 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1311 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1322 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1402 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM 1342 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? - 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM 1370 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM 1527 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1269 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1151 Views

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