Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
DomA Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
I can't remember, but I thought Avendesora was the only chora to survive and that they gave a cutting to the Cairhienen. I suppose even if this was the case that it wouldn't count as reproduction, just a cloning, but it does suggest one way for some constructs to make copies (or have copies made).
Avendesora is either OT for, or a later deformation of (can't be sure as we don't know the OT rules for forming words) of the OT "aviende chora" (Aviendha's name seems to be related to it too, incidentally), ie: chora tree(s). The Aiel brought potted cuttings with them from Paraan Disan (we see the Da'shain with them in TSR) - the one surviving cutting must have grown into "Avendesora". We know from the BWB that chora trees were constructs, and we know they're sterile and don't produce seeds. They're multiplied by making cuttings and making those grow roots. That's how the sappling given to Cairhien was grown.
I am also curious about Someshta... He says he remembers Wolfbrothers when he meets Perrin, but this must mean he is even older than the AOL (or at least was already very old by its end)
That's most unlikely. The BWB, and RJ, told us Nyms were Constructs from the AOL. The oddities are probably to put on this being the first book and RJ didn't have everything aligned perfectly about the back story elements.
He also remarks that it's been TWO thousand years since he's been under Avendesora. Was this a mistake on RJ's part, or did he have something to do with Rhuidean after being set up to guard to the Eye?
My guess is that Someshta is referring to another "avendesora", i.e: a chora tree that survived until the Trolloc Wars before the Nym lost it to the Blight.
Finally, you recently suggested that Nakomi and the Green Man may have been ancient gods predating the Wheel cosmology. Did you mean that the Nym were ancient gods, or that they were created to celebrate that tradition?
The later. My idea derives both from RJ's notion that facts and legends become mixed together and from a remark of LTT who conceive of the Creator as a Gardener in KOD. So one of my ideas was that the Nym were made for practical purposes, but their appearance was modelled in honor of an ancient deity associated with the male principle of the Creator, in the days before the OP was discovered and the Aes Sedai or their forerunners developped a new cosmology with the Creator's energy being the sum of a male and female half, the world being a Pattern etc. The theory was that over time after the Breaking Nym were forgotten and Someshta became the subject of legends, and confused with The Green Man. and yeah, the idea was that Nakomi may have been the female counterpart of the Gardener in the Great Serpent cosmology (but has no relation to Nym or constructs, she's forgotten by all but perhaps scholars or some WO... and probably a theologian like Elan Morin).
That's not my only idea for the origins of Nakomi though. Long before chapter 1 confirmed the name was ancient, I speculated she may have been:
a) an important Da'shain Aiel Madhi from the days of the WoS/Breaking. I'm convinced the Da'shain had an equivalent of what became the Wise Ones, and I'm pretty convinced Madhi (Seeker, as in Seeker in the Dream) was their original title (because we know the meaning of Madhi is a synonym of Wisdom in some areas). So Nakomi may have been a Jenn Aiel WO involved in the compact at Rhuidean. Some WO like Bair may have seen her when they went through the Columns, WO may or not see her depending if their ancestor interacted or not with her. It could mean the apparation of Nakomi to a WO on the eve of TG may have been part of the Columns's original programming.
b) Nakomi may be even more ancient and either be the first Dreamer among the Dai'shain Aiel or even be the founder of the Way of the Leaf.
c) She's even more ancient than this and this used to be a name for the female deity.
Either way it doesn't mean someone didn't borrow the name on purpose, of course. When Bair reveals who that ancient Nakomi was, we'll have a better idea.
Nakomi is the name of a Mother Goddess in Amerindian mythology (associated to the moon). She's the one who taught shamans to make "Dreamcatchers". Of course she would hardly be the only character whose name is taken from a Goddess and it doesn't prove in any way that's a deity's name in WOT (it could be perfectly mundane, like Tuon whose second name is Kore, aka Perséphone, the daughter of the mother Goddess Demeter, and is now name after the roman Goddess Fortuna). She could be any of the above, and a fourth distinct possibility is that this was a new alias of Cyndane, who's used the name of a RW deity before (Selene, a moon goddess... like Nakomi is). It's a distinct possibility what happened in Rhuidean is a scheme of Moridin or Cyndane, but have motives to use Aviendha for a revenge (Moridin promised if the Bowl of Winds was used and the DO's plans disrupted, those responsible would "live to pay". Elayne, the Kinswomen and seemingly the WF have paid, Aviendha and Nynaeve have so far escaped Moridin's revenge... for now, and that we know...).
This message last edited by DomA on 06/10/2012 at 10:09:08 PM
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1281 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1305 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1462 Views

