I've said all along that strength is a factor in making a gateway. I just don't think it is the determining factor ... Basically I keep saying your level of Talent determines how much strength you need to create a gateway of a certain size. Thus Flinn needs to push to make them and Adndrol does not. I also believe that Talent defines the limits of your ability regardless of your strength, meaning an angreal won't make Egwene a better Healer because her problem is not raw strength it's lack of Talent.
I agree with Fionwe completely in why we the reader cannot use gateway size to accurately measure OP strength. We have too many examples where a Talent shows us that this is a flawed system ... And I believe it was Shannow who had a very extensive set of posts "proving" that gateway size "100%" defined strength.
There is no evidence that Traveling Talent is "average" in most Channelers. It's hardly been discussed in the books, but we do have several examples of disproportionate gateways out there. Personally I doubt we'll see much more on this in the books, but I suspect Talent strength distribution is on a Bell Curve just like over all strength. But I don't think there is a relationship between where you fall on the strength Bell and where you fall on the talent Bell. But realistically the odds are you will fall within a similar range for both.
So Flinn at a 60 strength may only have a 40 talent and thus struggles with his gateway size because he sees another AS who is maybe a 50 strength and has a 60 talent can make a slightly larger gateway. If Medani has a 30 strength and a 60 talent she could make a small gateway and split her flows to carry a body without much strain ... If she was a 30/30 she may have had problems. Androl is clearly the big wild card since he may only have a 5 strength but his 100 talent allows for huge gateways. Talent may have a much larger distribution than strength as well in order to explain an extreme instance like Androl who is so weak he can do almost nothing with the OP except what his Talent allows. Or perhaps he also possesses a Spirit flow affinity and is doubling up on his bonuses for gateways (personally I think that is a stretch).
I agree with Fionwe completely in why we the reader cannot use gateway size to accurately measure OP strength. We have too many examples where a Talent shows us that this is a flawed system ... And I believe it was Shannow who had a very extensive set of posts "proving" that gateway size "100%" defined strength.
There is no evidence that Traveling Talent is "average" in most Channelers. It's hardly been discussed in the books, but we do have several examples of disproportionate gateways out there. Personally I doubt we'll see much more on this in the books, but I suspect Talent strength distribution is on a Bell Curve just like over all strength. But I don't think there is a relationship between where you fall on the strength Bell and where you fall on the talent Bell. But realistically the odds are you will fall within a similar range for both.
So Flinn at a 60 strength may only have a 40 talent and thus struggles with his gateway size because he sees another AS who is maybe a 50 strength and has a 60 talent can make a slightly larger gateway. If Medani has a 30 strength and a 60 talent she could make a small gateway and split her flows to carry a body without much strain ... If she was a 30/30 she may have had problems. Androl is clearly the big wild card since he may only have a 5 strength but his 100 talent allows for huge gateways. Talent may have a much larger distribution than strength as well in order to explain an extreme instance like Androl who is so weak he can do almost nothing with the OP except what his Talent allows. Or perhaps he also possesses a Spirit flow affinity and is doubling up on his bonuses for gateways (personally I think that is a stretch).
I personally believe that Talent is the defining quality of Travelling, but I also believe that everyone has the same general ability - therefore they are not Talented by virtue of the fact that everyone is the same so they don't stand out. Therefore they need a minimum strength to make a gateway and they can make a gateway according to their strength... roughly. I think if you take ten channelers of equal strength, they will have similar gateways, but not identical.
I think out of ten channelers, one might have a high Talent and one a low Talent. Someone with a low Talent will struggle to Travel and will use more of the Power to Travel or have smaller gateways. Someone with a high Talent will obviously be like Androl, who has disproportionate ability. It would be interesting to see if Androl can block a gateway or make very large skimming platforms. I think he probably could. He very nearly 'defeated' the dreamspike (its possible he still might to help them escape the BT).
I think it is obvious that the Talent is average in most channelers. Someone once asked RJ how two black ajah could hold Nynaeve if she's so powerful and he replied 'some people have shielding Talents'. And I pretty much believe the same with Travelling (you can adapt the question to Androl). I think most people have an average Talent at shielding but you get rather useless shielders (I actually think Nynaeve may be one by her failure to shield Elayne or hold Logain), and great ones (like Berowin).
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
2979 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
699 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1178 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1542 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1179 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1324 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1319 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1200 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1489 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1023 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1225 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1419 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1461 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1210 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1391 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1131 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1243 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1260 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1387 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1259 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1238 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1264 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1207 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1305 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1173 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1255 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1453 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1154 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1230 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1152 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1132 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1255 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1088 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1230 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1138 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1122 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1150 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1074 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1033 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1062 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1176 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1031 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1211 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1129 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1198 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1124 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1214 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1394 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1162 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
929 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1199 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1165 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1184 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1136 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1086 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1117 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
988 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1173 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1087 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1131 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1091 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1130 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1089 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1146 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1155 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1594 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1236 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1142 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1188 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1019 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1115 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1113 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1148 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
504 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1167 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1232 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1236 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1081 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1269 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1121 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM
1118 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1155 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
985 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1170 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1126 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1170 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1170 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
985 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1161 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1137 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1302 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1085 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
725 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1282 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1102 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1217 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1126 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1123 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1080 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1291 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1566 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1566 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1115 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1079 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1227 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1168 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1101 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1361 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1044 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1201 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1240 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1166 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1292 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1189 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1290 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1206 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1169 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1166 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1212 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1218 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1379 Views

