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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... Onarishma Send a noteboard - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
Think it through guys. The most obvious examples we have of Talents that are anything BUT rare are Healing and Traveling. They both involve weaves and nearly every Channeler we've come across has at least some ability with them. The level of ability is what fluctuates from person to person. Greater Talent means greater ability to modulate the weave and thus create a wider array of effects than others. With Healing this generally means a woman can Heal more serious wounds, or like Samistu can lessen the shock to the patients body and perform a delicate healing with a fundamentaly blunt weave. On the flip side Egwene can't even close Gawyns wounds fully despite a massive strength difference. Same holds true for gateways. Androl can use a drop of the Power to make one large enough for a wagon, but Flinn pours exponentially more power into a smaller gateway.

This is not a case of the talent itself being rare, it illustrates that there are extremes with Talents. It also proves OP strength is not what determines the end effect of weave involving a Talent.

I wonder what would happen if Androl or Flinn were given angreal ... Would they be able to make larger gateways or would they simply be able to make more gateways of the same size ... Rand seems to think there is a limit to the size any individual can make, and he clearly reached his max size gateway with only a small portion of his strength and thus generates many at the same time. I suspect we would see multiple gateways of the same size rather than larger ones from Flinn, but possibly larger ones from Androl. At least until he reached the edge of his talent.


I think comparing healing to traveling is inherently flawed. The healing weave is low power enough that even the weakest AS can use it. The Traveling weave on the otherhand can not be used my most AS alone. Isn't it strange that a weave that you claim doesn't relate to strength requires a channeler to be strong to even open one. One of the reasons this weave was lost in the first place is because many women could not use it because they weren't STRONG enough. Also as Ive said before the Healing weave is meant for a small injury and while those who designed it may have intended for it to be flexible it is the equivalent of a first aid kit. When post breaking AS were stuck with a first aid kit they learned how to use it for surgery and that is Talent but it doesn't mean Egwene and others are deficient. Using more specific weaves Egwene and others could probably do a much better job helping someone. Traveling however is a weave that has a very specific purposes and there is no mention of modulating it like the Yellow sister does to her Healing weave by any other channeler. Besides the affinity strength in Spirit aspect Ive mentioned previously it just stands to reason that those who are stronger will have larger Gateways for another reason. We have seen time and time again that stronger channelers can split their weaves the stronger they are the more weaves they can hold at once. Most AS can't even do two weaves at once let alone perform Egwene's little trick. That ability to do more than one thing at once is obviously tied to strength and more importantly it indicates an ability to conceive of more than one thing at once. With a weave like traveling where, in the female version at least, one has to be able to conceive that two places are the same the ability to make multiple weaves which is directly tied to strength is obviously going to affect how big you can conceive that sameness to be. The ability to conceive representing your ability to make multiple weaves also explains the difficulty a channeler experiences to make ANY weave work easily when she has already learned another. The description of how hard it is to weave multiple weaves neatly explains why a channeler using a replacement weave is in a way thinking of two weaves at once and therefore has difficulty regardless of the fact that she is capable of producing the proper effect. It may even be that the excess power being used is the ammount needed for the phantom weave. But I'm digressing. This discussion has been the use of one persons Talent to disprove what the text supports. Both the persons you have used to demonstrate weak Talent as well as strong Talent are unsubstatiated and in the case of Aviendha blatantly contrary to her own point of view which states her very first Gateway did not require that much of her strength. Without proof Flinn could have the same issue or just be tired. Reanne could be benefitting from the repetitive nature of her Gateway to that location i.e. she was able to "conceive"of a larger gateway in that instance because she already knew the base information from repetively going to the same place from the same place. It's likely Traveling somewhere else or from somewhere else would reduce her down to her proper size. Androl is the only channeler we have proof of having a Talent anyone else is conjecture and as you can see from above I can conject plausible reasons for those same "discrepancies" that take into acccount things we know about the one power.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2926 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1500 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1142 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1283 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1445 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1278 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1164 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1203 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1179 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1304 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 978 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1183 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1208 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1286 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1373 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1186 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 602 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1409 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1166 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1342 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1096 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1191 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1217 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1353 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1201 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1200 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1214 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1178 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1263 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1132 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1141 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1208 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1049 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1184 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1413 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1101 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1177 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1117 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1156 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1102 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1221 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1046 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1254 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1184 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1195 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1097 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1091 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1073 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1101 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 976 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1024 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1137 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 993 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1163 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 967 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1092 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1162 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1144 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1160 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1341 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1121 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1041 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 887 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1153 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1077 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1112 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1126 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1096 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1099 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1047 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1084 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 956 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1127 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1031 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1074 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1062 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1081 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1043 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1111 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1103 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1553 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1079 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1085 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1061 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1111 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 482 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1038 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1091 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1182 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1176 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1042 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 786 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1232 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1079 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1074 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1182 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1112 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1123 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1077 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1118 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1148 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 978 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 945 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1047 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1115 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1097 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 700 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1064 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1209 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1045 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1175 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1097 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1069 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1231 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 998 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1501 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1047 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1189 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1163 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1055 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1314 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1104 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1227 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1111 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 987 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1142 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1208 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1136 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1245 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1162 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1196 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 590 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1252 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1166 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1165 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1129 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1105 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1177 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1087 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 967 Views

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