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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... Onarishma Send a noteboard - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
Think it through guys. The most obvious examples we have of Talents that are anything BUT rare are Healing and Traveling. They both involve weaves and nearly every Channeler we've come across has at least some ability with them. The level of ability is what fluctuates from person to person. Greater Talent means greater ability to modulate the weave and thus create a wider array of effects than others. With Healing this generally means a woman can Heal more serious wounds, or like Samistu can lessen the shock to the patients body and perform a delicate healing with a fundamentaly blunt weave. On the flip side Egwene can't even close Gawyns wounds fully despite a massive strength difference. Same holds true for gateways. Androl can use a drop of the Power to make one large enough for a wagon, but Flinn pours exponentially more power into a smaller gateway.

This is not a case of the talent itself being rare, it illustrates that there are extremes with Talents. It also proves OP strength is not what determines the end effect of weave involving a Talent.

I wonder what would happen if Androl or Flinn were given angreal ... Would they be able to make larger gateways or would they simply be able to make more gateways of the same size ... Rand seems to think there is a limit to the size any individual can make, and he clearly reached his max size gateway with only a small portion of his strength and thus generates many at the same time. I suspect we would see multiple gateways of the same size rather than larger ones from Flinn, but possibly larger ones from Androl. At least until he reached the edge of his talent.


I think comparing healing to traveling is inherently flawed. The healing weave is low power enough that even the weakest AS can use it. The Traveling weave on the otherhand can not be used my most AS alone. Isn't it strange that a weave that you claim doesn't relate to strength requires a channeler to be strong to even open one. One of the reasons this weave was lost in the first place is because many women could not use it because they weren't STRONG enough. Also as Ive said before the Healing weave is meant for a small injury and while those who designed it may have intended for it to be flexible it is the equivalent of a first aid kit. When post breaking AS were stuck with a first aid kit they learned how to use it for surgery and that is Talent but it doesn't mean Egwene and others are deficient. Using more specific weaves Egwene and others could probably do a much better job helping someone. Traveling however is a weave that has a very specific purposes and there is no mention of modulating it like the Yellow sister does to her Healing weave by any other channeler. Besides the affinity strength in Spirit aspect Ive mentioned previously it just stands to reason that those who are stronger will have larger Gateways for another reason. We have seen time and time again that stronger channelers can split their weaves the stronger they are the more weaves they can hold at once. Most AS can't even do two weaves at once let alone perform Egwene's little trick. That ability to do more than one thing at once is obviously tied to strength and more importantly it indicates an ability to conceive of more than one thing at once. With a weave like traveling where, in the female version at least, one has to be able to conceive that two places are the same the ability to make multiple weaves which is directly tied to strength is obviously going to affect how big you can conceive that sameness to be. The ability to conceive representing your ability to make multiple weaves also explains the difficulty a channeler experiences to make ANY weave work easily when she has already learned another. The description of how hard it is to weave multiple weaves neatly explains why a channeler using a replacement weave is in a way thinking of two weaves at once and therefore has difficulty regardless of the fact that she is capable of producing the proper effect. It may even be that the excess power being used is the ammount needed for the phantom weave. But I'm digressing. This discussion has been the use of one persons Talent to disprove what the text supports. Both the persons you have used to demonstrate weak Talent as well as strong Talent are unsubstatiated and in the case of Aviendha blatantly contrary to her own point of view which states her very first Gateway did not require that much of her strength. Without proof Flinn could have the same issue or just be tired. Reanne could be benefitting from the repetitive nature of her Gateway to that location i.e. she was able to "conceive"of a larger gateway in that instance because she already knew the base information from repetively going to the same place from the same place. It's likely Traveling somewhere else or from somewhere else would reduce her down to her proper size. Androl is the only channeler we have proof of having a Talent anyone else is conjecture and as you can see from above I can conject plausible reasons for those same "discrepancies" that take into acccount things we know about the one power.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2753 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1290 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 969 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1113 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1183 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1102 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 974 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1018 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 993 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1138 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 778 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1006 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1031 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1091 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1193 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1005 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 524 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1188 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 989 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1163 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 893 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 996 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1023 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1166 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 981 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 992 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1030 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1001 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1066 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 965 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 975 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1018 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 845 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1013 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1209 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 904 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1012 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 924 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 962 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 924 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1039 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 870 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1080 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1015 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1010 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 930 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 882 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 866 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 903 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 781 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 846 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 943 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 825 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 964 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 805 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 911 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 943 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 961 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 993 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1139 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 932 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 864 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 718 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 974 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 908 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 914 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 966 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 901 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 908 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 876 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 915 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 798 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 970 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 866 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 900 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 860 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 881 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 877 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 919 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 907 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1369 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 905 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 911 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 891 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 919 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 416 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 879 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 913 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 988 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 997 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 873 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 714 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1048 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 890 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 899 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1008 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 929 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 961 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 907 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 906 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 957 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 803 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 781 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 878 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 942 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 920 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 623 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 893 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1022 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 865 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 992 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 923 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 901 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1038 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 825 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1292 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 858 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1014 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 954 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 872 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1091 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 929 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1040 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 910 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 808 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 922 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1041 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 958 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1010 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 943 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1002 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 502 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1056 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 995 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 990 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 945 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 914 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 989 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 882 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 776 Views

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