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TY!!! Onarishma Send a noteboard - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM
You will notice that not one woman has made a strength to Gayeway comparison.


LOC (Possibilities) - Egwene’s rediscovery of Travelling caused a lot of Aes Sedai to smile, though only a handful were strong enough to make a gateway larger than they could put an arm through and most not even that.

Why have you quoted this? It shows there's a certain amount of strength required to Travel if you don't have hight levels of the Talent. It doesn't show anything resembling a one to one correlation between Gateway size and strength.


Let's assume there are two types of weaves : those you weave and they work e.g. a fireball, and those that only work for certain channelers e.g. Healing.

So I'll quickly round up the last 100 posts and summarize why Travelling is the former, and not a Talent in most cases...

1. It always works when you are strong enough in the Power. There is no real evidence that anyone with significant strength can't Travel despite your claims. Siuan can't Travel and suddenly she gets a sa'angreal and she can Travel. Even worse, she actually loses a Talent by becoming weaker in the Power. This is unheard of in Talent circles e.g. Dreaming, Foretelling, Cuendillar... once again proving that Travelling is not a Talent per se, but a weave that provides linear effect proportionately to strength in the Power. Much like a fireball, the more Fire you put into it, the bigger the fireball. You use minor discrepancies or complaints from channelers with different size gateways to list Travelling as a Talent, and yet its obvious that interindividual variation occurs with all weaves, especially because all people show different affinities for the five flows. The fact that Flinn is worse at Travelling means about as much as someone who is less adept with Fire for making a fireball i.e. it's not about Talents at all but aptitude with various weaves. In other words, evidence of variation is not evidence of the presence of a Talent. All weaves show variation.

2. You're ignoring evidence for the fact that the Talent is so rare that it isn't really an issue for most channelers when judging other channelers...

- Rand rates Asha'man strength on gateway size often from LoC onwards.

- Egwene directly says that only a handful of women have the strength to make a gateway to even put a hand through. This is clear evidence that Travelling is not a function of Talent but rather of strength in the Power. Egwene doesn't say that Nynaeve's discovery of five power Healing is causing excitement but that only a few women have the strength to pull it off. Nor does she say that few women are strong enough in the Power to make cuendillar. Those are Talents - she cannot predict who will be good with it. Travelling is not. She can accurately gauge who will be able to Travel from a distance.

- Mesaana measures Alviarin's strength in the Power and says that she has minimal strength but enough to teach her. She then teaches her to Travel. Mesaana doesn't wonder secretly whether Alviarin will have the Talent to pull off a gateway because all channelers in WoT know that all you need is the minimum strength and you can Travel. Before you protest, can you imagine if she made the same assumption about Healing... "you have little strength, child, but this is Healing." It probably wouldn't work. You have ignored all the signs of a strength based weave.

- Aviendha is angry that Elayne can outperform her with gateways. You use this as evidence of Talent, but actually it is evidence that Aviendha feels that she should be able to Travel like Elayne because she knows their strengths are similar. The fact that she cannot is due to her second weave inability. Once again, she expects that her fireballs should be as large as Elayne's.

- Logain measures a man's strength based on his gateways. You say that women don't ever do this, but women do mention that too few women are strong enough to Travel. Women can also measure their power directly merely by being close to another woman. Men cannot, and thus look at one another's feats.

3. The Talent does exist and it is powerful. Androl can make gateways with little effort. He can possibly even overwhelm a dreamspike, block gateways etc. He is rare. Berowin is rare. That's the whole reason why its called a Talent. If a woman like Sorilea makes a fireball as big as a house then she has a fireball Talent. Everyone else can make a fireball proportionate to how much Fire they place in a weave that is limited by their strength in the Power.

I just find it odd that you cling to a lone example like Androl but refuse to address examples mentioned repeatedly in the text to challenge this.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2753 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1288 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 967 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1111 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1183 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1100 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 971 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1016 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 991 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1136 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 775 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1004 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1031 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1089 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1191 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1003 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 523 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1186 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 987 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1161 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 890 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 994 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1020 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1165 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 979 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 990 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1028 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 999 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1064 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 963 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 975 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1015 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 843 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1011 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1207 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 902 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1012 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 921 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 960 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 922 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1037 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 870 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1079 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1013 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1008 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 928 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 880 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 864 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 901 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 781 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 844 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 941 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 823 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 962 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 803 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 910 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 941 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 961 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 992 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1137 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 930 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 864 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 716 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 972 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 906 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 912 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 963 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 900 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 905 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 874 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 912 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 796 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 968 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 864 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 898 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 860 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 881 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 875 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 917 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 905 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1367 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 905 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 909 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 889 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 917 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 416 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 877 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 911 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 986 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 995 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 871 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 714 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1046 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 888 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 899 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1006 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 928 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 961 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 905 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 906 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 955 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 801 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 779 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 878 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 940 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 918 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 623 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 891 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1020 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 863 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 990 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 920 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 899 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1036 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 823 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1290 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 856 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1011 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 952 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 870 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1089 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 929 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1038 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 908 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 806 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 920 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1039 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 956 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1010 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 941 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1000 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 502 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1054 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 994 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 988 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 943 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 912 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 987 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 880 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 774 Views

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