Those 4 women combined are likely close to Beonin, at least in the ball park ... She creates a gateway about 1/3 the size of Rands. Seems like a nice bonus to equal Rand with the precision bonus. I buy that completely.
But to have 13 AS who might be 5x (on the high side) Rands strength create a gateway 65x the size of his maximum seems beyond extreme ... It would mean the precision bonus of the circle added more than 20x to the Gateway. That assuming these were 13 very strong AS ... Furthermore, how could Rand break a Shield held by multiple women if the precision bonus is so powerful?
Thanks for providing the quote by the way
But to have 13 AS who might be 5x (on the high side) Rands strength create a gateway 65x the size of his maximum seems beyond extreme ... It would mean the precision bonus of the circle added more than 20x to the Gateway. That assuming these were 13 very strong AS ... Furthermore, how could Rand break a Shield held by multiple women if the precision bonus is so powerful?
Thanks for providing the quote by the way
This was a circle of thirteen. That is supposed to be strong enough to shield Egwene with Vora's wand, which is also going to require a huger boost than 13X the normal sister's strength.
Circles really do seem to add more to what can be achieved the larger they are when its women-only circles. Male-female, the balance between men and women seems more important, with circles of six men and six women outperforming a circle of 72 in some cases.
That Gateway is well beyond a circle being able to shield 1 woman with a powerful sa'angreal. Of course what you say here is pretty much the same thing I'm getting at and flies in the face of the RJ quote. All this conversation really bears out is that circles do exponentially increase the abilities of those in them. Perhaps not directly mapping to Talents and flow strength, but it's also clear that there is more to it than simply seeing increased strength and precision.
From these effects no individual should be able to hold up to even a small circle and we know that is false from the Cleansing. Damer, Corele and Sarene barely match Demandred, despite being a mixed circle of relatively strong individuals. Cumulatively their strength would add up to close to Demandred, in a link with the amount of bonus we are seeing they should have crushed him in seconds. And Verin's team with an angreal could not even shield Graendal. Huge disconnect IMHO
No use arguing the quote at this point, but I wonder if he would say the same thing now.
Winter's Heart
Chapter 35:
With The Choedan Kal
Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would.
Demandred notes that the strength was equal to his own ... in fact Demandred and all his skill should have wiped the floor with Flinn/Corele/Sarene because of his Skill ... certainly Cyndane showed more by fighting off the vastly stronger Alivia and Graendal was too powerful for Verin's circle to shield? If linking gave an exponential increase due to a precision bonus they should have been able to easily shield her.
Winter's Heart
Chapter 35:
With The Choedan Kal
Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her shield, and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
3110 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
764 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1306 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1665 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1333 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1453 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1436 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1333 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1696 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1153 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1354 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1558 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1597 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1370 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1535 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1258 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1350 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1406 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1518 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1378 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1372 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1389 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1334 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1438 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1304 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1400 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1587 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1295 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1362 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1274 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1261 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1393 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1215 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1352 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1270 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1252 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1271 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1196 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1163 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1197 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1291 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1159 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1342 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1261 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1316 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1255 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1346 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1503 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1288 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
1087 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1318 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1297 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1320 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1271 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1215 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1252 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
1125 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1317 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1216 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1251 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1224 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1268 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1236 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1282 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1293 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1734 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1384 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1282 Views
Not so much
- 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM
1275 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1316 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1140 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1237 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1236 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1269 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
560 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1285 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1351 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1373 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1213 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1390 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1252 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1279 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1109 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1300 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1269 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1308 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1308 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1109 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1304 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1256 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1448 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1217 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
792 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1419 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1230 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1339 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1239 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1247 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1211 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1427 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1717 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1717 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1248 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1200 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1370 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1293 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1221 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1506 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1170 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1332 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1375 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1300 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1427 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1320 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1426 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1337 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1297 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1324 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1346 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1374 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1530 Views

