there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though....
Onarishma Send a noteboard - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM
Flow affinity and Talent are different things. You are trying to play it both ways. You claim Androl has a Talent, but no one else (despite tons of evidence) does ... regardless or that you STILL CAN'T determine how strong a channeler is based on a gateway's size. There are OBVIOUSLY people who can create larger ones than their strength indicates they should be able to and people with plenty of strength who struggle with it. It doesn't matter WHY ... it exists therefore it makes it impossible to judge strength from a gateway.
Androl is the proof that the Talent trumps strength. Asmodean didn't need to lie, we have the example right here in the text showing us that strength is not the key factor.
Why is this so difficult to accept?
Androl is the proof that the Talent trumps strength. Asmodean didn't need to lie, we have the example right here in the text showing us that strength is not the key factor.
Why is this so difficult to accept?
I.e. something that runs through your fingers.
A TALENT is the ability to manipulate a weave.
Being able to use a weave does not mean you have the ability to manipulate it. Which means you do not have to have TALENT to perform it.
There is a CONSISTENT statement by ALL witnesses that except in the case of those with TALENT (Androl being the only person identified) that Gateway size is directly proportional to strength. There is evidence that strength in a power affects the effect of simple weaves. Simple weaves defined as those using one power or possible a limited inclusion of a second. It is possible I am extrapolating too far BUT The Glossary in the EotW states "While Spirit was found equally in men and women, great ability with Earth and/or Fire was found much more often among men, with Water and/or Air among women" It's possible that "great ability" in Spirit was found equally between the sexes and not general ability but considering it was a generalization in the first place and that there has been NO mention of ANYONE being strong in Spirit I'm pretty sure I am correct. I suggest that in simple weaves strength in Spirit equals effectiveness in the weave and that strength in Spirit is directly proportional to the volume of the OP you can hold. Even if you want to argue that Androl and Berowin are strong in Spirit that could fit with the text but arguing that EVERYONE is deficient in "Talent" is ridiculous when observation of the majority of ALL channelers dictates otherwise. Particularly among women who can sense each other's actual strength and see the size of the Gateway produced at the same time.
You have four examples.
1. Androl who no one disputes has a Talent.
2. Reanne who I do dispute no one else has commented on her Gateway size being unusual. And our observation is of a location she has visited often. More importantly Reanne's strength is conjecture so expectations about her gateway size is also conjecture. Though from my memory she is among those strong enough to be AS. As old as she is she might have left the Tower when her strength was considered weak but she might be "average" for today's AS.
3. Aviendha who says flat out that it is a duplicate weave issue
4. Flinn who I need a quote on(I can't find the scene you've been referring to) but obviously the comment didn't stick out as unusual at the time like Androl's blatant oddity. besides that in PoD Flinn is reported as having the largest Gateway of those present.
"Ducking low on Tai’daishar’s neck, Rand heeled the gelding through the largest Gateway. Flinn’s as it happened,..." Gathering Clouds - POD
So not only does he know which one is Flinn's and seeing as they are about to enter a potentially dangerous area they are most likely holding as much of the power as possible. He should be able to tell Flinn's strength and if that Gateway is what he expects.
So out of four only one of them is shown to have a Talent or lack thereof. No one else has been noted in ANY way as being deficient or overly proficient.
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
2979 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
699 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1178 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1542 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1179 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1324 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1317 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1200 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1487 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1023 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1225 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1419 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1459 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1208 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1389 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1131 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1241 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1260 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1385 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1257 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1264 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1207 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1303 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1173 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1253 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1453 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1152 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1152 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1131 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1255 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1230 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1138 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1122 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1148 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1074 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1033 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1211 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1127 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1196 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1122 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1212 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1394 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1162 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
927 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1197 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1163 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1182 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1086 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1115 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
986 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1171 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1085 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1129 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1087 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1146 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1140 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1188 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1017 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1112 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1148 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
504 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1165 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1230 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1236 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1079 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1267 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1155 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
983 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1168 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1124 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1168 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1168 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though....
- 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM
1205 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
983 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1161 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1137 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1302 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1083 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
725 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1280 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1100 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1215 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1124 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1121 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1078 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1289 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1565 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1565 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1113 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1079 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1227 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1166 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1101 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1359 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1042 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1199 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1240 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1166 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1290 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1189 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1288 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1206 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1169 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1166 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1210 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1218 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1379 Views

