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there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... Onarishma Send a noteboard - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM
Flow affinity and Talent are different things. You are trying to play it both ways. You claim Androl has a Talent, but no one else (despite tons of evidence) does ... regardless or that you STILL CAN'T determine how strong a channeler is based on a gateway's size. There are OBVIOUSLY people who can create larger ones than their strength indicates they should be able to and people with plenty of strength who struggle with it. It doesn't matter WHY ... it exists therefore it makes it impossible to judge strength from a gateway.

Androl is the proof that the Talent trumps strength. Asmodean didn't need to lie, we have the example right here in the text showing us that strength is not the key factor.

Why is this so difficult to accept?


I.e. something that runs through your fingers.

A TALENT is the ability to manipulate a weave.
Being able to use a weave does not mean you have the ability to manipulate it. Which means you do not have to have TALENT to perform it.

There is a CONSISTENT statement by ALL witnesses that except in the case of those with TALENT (Androl being the only person identified) that Gateway size is directly proportional to strength. There is evidence that strength in a power affects the effect of simple weaves. Simple weaves defined as those using one power or possible a limited inclusion of a second. It is possible I am extrapolating too far BUT The Glossary in the EotW states "While Spirit was found equally in men and women, great ability with Earth and/or Fire was found much more often among men, with Water and/or Air among women" It's possible that "great ability" in Spirit was found equally between the sexes and not general ability but considering it was a generalization in the first place and that there has been NO mention of ANYONE being strong in Spirit I'm pretty sure I am correct. I suggest that in simple weaves strength in Spirit equals effectiveness in the weave and that strength in Spirit is directly proportional to the volume of the OP you can hold. Even if you want to argue that Androl and Berowin are strong in Spirit that could fit with the text but arguing that EVERYONE is deficient in "Talent" is ridiculous when observation of the majority of ALL channelers dictates otherwise. Particularly among women who can sense each other's actual strength and see the size of the Gateway produced at the same time.

You have four examples.

1. Androl who no one disputes has a Talent.

2. Reanne who I do dispute no one else has commented on her Gateway size being unusual. And our observation is of a location she has visited often. More importantly Reanne's strength is conjecture so expectations about her gateway size is also conjecture. Though from my memory she is among those strong enough to be AS. As old as she is she might have left the Tower when her strength was considered weak but she might be "average" for today's AS.

3. Aviendha who says flat out that it is a duplicate weave issue

4. Flinn who I need a quote on(I can't find the scene you've been referring to) but obviously the comment didn't stick out as unusual at the time like Androl's blatant oddity. besides that in PoD Flinn is reported as having the largest Gateway of those present.

"Ducking low on Tai’daishar’s neck, Rand heeled the gelding through the largest Gateway. Flinn’s as it happened,..." Gathering Clouds - POD

So not only does he know which one is Flinn's and seeing as they are about to enter a potentially dangerous area they are most likely holding as much of the power as possible. He should be able to tell Flinn's strength and if that Gateway is what he expects.

So out of four only one of them is shown to have a Talent or lack thereof. No one else has been noted in ANY way as being deficient or overly proficient.

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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3078 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1643 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1300 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1424 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1658 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1406 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1299 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1331 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1331 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1469 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1127 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1325 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1366 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1440 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1531 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1353 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 671 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1571 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1339 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1503 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1231 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1330 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1375 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1478 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1353 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1342 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1366 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1307 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1405 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1276 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1298 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1366 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1235 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1333 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1561 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1266 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1341 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1242 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1273 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1238 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1363 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1191 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1403 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1340 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1332 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1233 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1257 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1219 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1244 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1136 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1160 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1265 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1134 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1311 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1106 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1241 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1290 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1320 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1328 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1476 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1266 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1186 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1062 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1292 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1225 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1272 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1293 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1243 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1243 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1188 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1231 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1097 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1285 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1193 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1225 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1193 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1244 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1206 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1249 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1267 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1713 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1257 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1254 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1207 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1244 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 548 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1171 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1255 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1324 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1346 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1185 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 856 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1369 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1226 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1219 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1354 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1255 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1276 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1247 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1277 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1311 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1124 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1083 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1187 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1254 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1238 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 781 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1215 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1399 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1210 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1320 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1212 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1220 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1395 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1143 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1683 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1173 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1340 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1331 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1194 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1472 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1242 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1401 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1265 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1145 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1303 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1347 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1276 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1398 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1296 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1345 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 656 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1399 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1310 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1335 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1287 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1300 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1367 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1238 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1122 Views

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