RJ had a solid background in Physics and no doubt made up strict rules and explanations for all this, but IRRC he never explained what they were.
As far as I remember, no perfect explananation for this was found except some suggested it's not a simple "physical hole" like a doorway that lets anything through... that when something goes through, it involves a manipulation or twisting of reality. So it looks like you're simply physically going from one side to the other, but in truth it's far more complex than this.
Those that can't go through Gateways support this reasoning: they are the Constructs, in other words men-made (with the OP) lifeforms, thus "artificial". Those we know can't use Gateways include Shadowspawn and Nym, so this isn't a Shadow thing (the gholam exception is very likely a Sanderson retcon because he had the gholam not die in TOM.. Jordan probably intended the gholam to die going through the gateway but he knew constructs couldn't survive this and didn't specify in a note to himself the gholam died, just that Mat would have it go through a gateway...) It seems to some that the Wheel is just unable to perform the "thread twisting" involved to let them pass through gateways. They just die. It might be true of vegetal constructs like Chora Trees as well.
My guess is that the Wheel doesn't let air pressure differences etc. occur. Each side of the Gateway remains separate, the hole is there but not really a physical hole, more like a threshold. When a being or object go through, there's some twisting of reality to make it pass through one point in the pattern to another, it's not simply walking through. Objects can go through gateways, the Seanchan sent projectiles through Elayne's. It could mean making a Gateway to the bottom of the Ocean wouldn't make all the water flood the other side either. Some habve suggested what looks like a simple hole is more like an invisible metaphysical "membrane" between two points in the Pattern, that you can pass through it without noticing that, that you can send an object through it, that animals can go through it but that the two points joined remain distinct and there's no real physical interraction from anything without sentience or will involved.. heat or cold, winds and such. IRRC, there was no snow that went through Aviendha's gateway into Rand's quarters in Rhuidean.
As far as I remember, no perfect explananation for this was found except some suggested it's not a simple "physical hole" like a doorway that lets anything through... that when something goes through, it involves a manipulation or twisting of reality. So it looks like you're simply physically going from one side to the other, but in truth it's far more complex than this.
Those that can't go through Gateways support this reasoning: they are the Constructs, in other words men-made (with the OP) lifeforms, thus "artificial". Those we know can't use Gateways include Shadowspawn and Nym, so this isn't a Shadow thing (the gholam exception is very likely a Sanderson retcon because he had the gholam not die in TOM.. Jordan probably intended the gholam to die going through the gateway but he knew constructs couldn't survive this and didn't specify in a note to himself the gholam died, just that Mat would have it go through a gateway...) It seems to some that the Wheel is just unable to perform the "thread twisting" involved to let them pass through gateways. They just die. It might be true of vegetal constructs like Chora Trees as well.
My guess is that the Wheel doesn't let air pressure differences etc. occur. Each side of the Gateway remains separate, the hole is there but not really a physical hole, more like a threshold. When a being or object go through, there's some twisting of reality to make it pass through one point in the pattern to another, it's not simply walking through. Objects can go through gateways, the Seanchan sent projectiles through Elayne's. It could mean making a Gateway to the bottom of the Ocean wouldn't make all the water flood the other side either. Some habve suggested what looks like a simple hole is more like an invisible metaphysical "membrane" between two points in the Pattern, that you can pass through it without noticing that, that you can send an object through it, that animals can go through it but that the two points joined remain distinct and there's no real physical interraction from anything without sentience or will involved.. heat or cold, winds and such. IRRC, there was no snow that went through Aviendha's gateway into Rand's quarters in Rhuidean.
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
3051 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
735 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1255 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1612 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1268 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1391 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1381 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1279 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1624 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1097 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1295 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1499 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1533 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1304 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1471 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1194 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1300 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1339 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1448 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1320 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1306 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1332 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1277 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1371 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1247 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1331 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1527 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1233 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1298 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1219 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1203 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1334 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1165 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1301 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1208 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1192 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1209 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1141 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1105 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1129 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1237 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1102 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1279 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1215 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1263 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1196 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1285 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1447 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1228 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
1030 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1263 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1237 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1267 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1216 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1154 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1198 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
1066 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1249 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1157 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1197 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1164 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1208 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1171 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1223 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1229 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1677 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1313 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1225 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1253 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1078 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1176 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1174 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1213 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
529 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1218 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1294 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1314 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1150 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1334 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1197 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1226 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1051 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1245 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1217 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1246 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1246 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1051 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1239 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1199 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1392 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1154 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
755 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1356 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1173 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1284 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1186 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1184 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1148 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1367 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1648 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1648 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1185 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1142 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1307 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1232 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1164 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1444 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1118 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1269 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1314 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1240 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1364 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1259 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1362 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1273 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1241 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1269 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1284 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1305 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1464 Views

