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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. Onarishma Send a noteboard - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
In tFoH, just before he leads the attack on Rahvin, he thinks clearly that strength did not have much to do with Gateway size:

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.

You need the OP to make the weave, and depending on the level of your Talent with the weave, the minimum amount of OP you need to put into a Gateway will differ. Sorelia, for example, seems to definitely have enough Talent to make the weave. But she's so weak the weaves don't hold. Androl is also very weak. But he has a much higher Talent. So he can make actual Gateways, even very large ones, even though he doesn't have access to that much more OP than Sorelia.

On the other hand, Flinn can put a lot more of the Power into his Gateway. But he can't make them as big because he's stunted by his relatively weak Talent.

With just those three examples, the relationship between Talent and strength in determining

Gateway size is readily obvious. Add in Reanne, Aviendha, etc. and the only way you can claim OP strength is the sole determiner of Gateway Size is if you totally ignore the books.


Not at all. To ignore the book is to ignore that both males and females have concluded the same things about gateway size. And that Asmodean's philosophical answer doesn't explain anything. He definitely doesn't say it requires Talent or that it is NOT related to strength. besides, this is Asmodean who clearly lied about not being able to show Rand how to make a regular Gateway since Sorilea did exactly what he said he couldn't do. I'll concede that strength in Spirit is what affects Gateway size but as I pointed out in another post all the statements we've had so far is that strength in Spirit is directly proportional to One Power strength. Aviendha is clearly a case of learning a different weave first. Her gateway is the right size for her strength but she has to use more Power to make the weave work. Reanne is hardly more Significant because until she or someone else comments on the size of her Gateways we don't have any idea she is doing anything unusual at all.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3029 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1589 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1238 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1370 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1570 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1358 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1250 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1280 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1272 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1401 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1070 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1271 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1312 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1384 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1470 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1296 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 647 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1512 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1284 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1437 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1177 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1278 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1311 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1426 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1302 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1287 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1303 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1251 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1346 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1212 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1221 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1304 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1180 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1276 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1498 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1199 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1273 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1194 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1225 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1179 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1307 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1142 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1356 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1278 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1277 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1182 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1199 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1162 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1184 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1075 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1106 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1212 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1083 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1255 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1186 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1238 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1263 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1265 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1431 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1206 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1133 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1003 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1238 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1167 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1217 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1240 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1188 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1189 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1138 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1165 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1042 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1222 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1137 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1174 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1138 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1176 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1143 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1193 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1203 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1650 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1196 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1188 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1158 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1187 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 518 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1114 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1206 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1276 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1288 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1128 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 829 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1313 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1171 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1157 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1299 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1207 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1214 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1185 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1217 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1249 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1074 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1023 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1129 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1201 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1178 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 743 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1155 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1332 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1145 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1264 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1162 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1166 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1337 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1085 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1616 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1122 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1280 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1282 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1143 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1420 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1191 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1324 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1201 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1099 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1248 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1283 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1211 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1339 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1234 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1291 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 629 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1339 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1248 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1280 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1234 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1234 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1307 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1175 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1065 Views

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