Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
Onarishma Send a noteboard - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
In tFoH, just before he leads the attack on Rahvin, he thinks clearly that strength did not have much to do with Gateway size:
Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
You need the OP to make the weave, and depending on the level of your Talent with the weave, the minimum amount of OP you need to put into a Gateway will differ. Sorelia, for example, seems to definitely have enough Talent to make the weave. But she's so weak the weaves don't hold. Androl is also very weak. But he has a much higher Talent. So he can make actual Gateways, even very large ones, even though he doesn't have access to that much more OP than Sorelia.
On the other hand, Flinn can put a lot more of the Power into his Gateway. But he can't make them as big because he's stunted by his relatively weak Talent.
With just those three examples, the relationship between Talent and strength in determining
Gateway size is readily obvious. Add in Reanne, Aviendha, etc. and the only way you can claim OP strength is the sole determiner of Gateway Size is if you totally ignore the books.
Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
You need the OP to make the weave, and depending on the level of your Talent with the weave, the minimum amount of OP you need to put into a Gateway will differ. Sorelia, for example, seems to definitely have enough Talent to make the weave. But she's so weak the weaves don't hold. Androl is also very weak. But he has a much higher Talent. So he can make actual Gateways, even very large ones, even though he doesn't have access to that much more OP than Sorelia.
On the other hand, Flinn can put a lot more of the Power into his Gateway. But he can't make them as big because he's stunted by his relatively weak Talent.
With just those three examples, the relationship between Talent and strength in determining
Gateway size is readily obvious. Add in Reanne, Aviendha, etc. and the only way you can claim OP strength is the sole determiner of Gateway Size is if you totally ignore the books.
Not at all. To ignore the book is to ignore that both males and females have concluded the same things about gateway size. And that Asmodean's philosophical answer doesn't explain anything. He definitely doesn't say it requires Talent or that it is NOT related to strength. besides, this is Asmodean who clearly lied about not being able to show Rand how to make a regular Gateway since Sorilea did exactly what he said he couldn't do. I'll concede that strength in Spirit is what affects Gateway size but as I pointed out in another post all the statements we've had so far is that strength in Spirit is directly proportional to One Power strength. Aviendha is clearly a case of learning a different weave first. Her gateway is the right size for her strength but she has to use more Power to make the weave work. Reanne is hardly more Significant because until she or someone else comments on the size of her Gateways we don't have any idea she is doing anything unusual at all.
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
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Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
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