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Re: See my comment below Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM
Well, it's probably more of a general comment than anything related to this topic specifically, it just gave me an excuse to post about something that's been irritating me a lot. Too many people seem to be equating cynicism with realism. I appreciate stories set in a darker tone, but I also enjoy idealistic ones. And frankly, whenever someone accuses The Lord of the Rings of not being realistic I can only wonder if they are idiots. It is pretty obvious that it was never intended to be thus. Something cannot fail at achieving something that wasn't it's objective in the first place. Like picking up some centuries old classic and complaining that it doesn't address modern issues, or watching porn and complaining that it doesn't have deep and engaging plots. True, certainly, but why would you expect them to?

I've read of people expecting obviously idealistic stories to be more cynical. Do you know The Legend of Zelda? A popular video game, where you incarnate the silent protagonist Link who embodies the virtue of Courage as he seeks to retrieve the magical Sword of Evil's Bane that only the True Hero can wield and use it to vanquish the Dark Lord Ganondorf and save the Princess Zelda. And yes, those capitalisations were necessary, I think. Anyway, you'd expect that with such a pretty obvious core it would be quite obvious that it isn't aiming for a dark and grim mood that gets proposed as 'realistic'. And yet, I recently read someone who wrote that he felt the series needed just that (link provided). I can only wonder, why? There is no lack of games that offer this perspective to players, should it be what they desire. Why would you want to turn a game that obviously has the opposite theme and bludgeon it to fit your perspective of what a good story should be?

Furthermore, sometimes it doesn't even follow anything as clear as that. Some people just use 'realism' as a definition of anything they see fit. I remember reading such a complaint about Robert Jordan's profanity in The Wheel of Time from the Westeros forums. Things like 'mother's milk in a cup' and so forth, being 'unrealistic'. I can only wonder. I've nearly only heard popular American profanity from some of my friends who have been in the army and served in the company of English Canadians, and it isn't because I only know very well mannered people. Likewise, the profanity in common use around here could probably be written on this board with no fear of Sidious reprimanding me, I'm sure.

Even in France - same language, same religion - Québecois profanity would be more a source of amusement and curiosity than offence. And the same goes inversely, I do hear a lot of joking about French profanity - it is very anally-centred (whereas ours is sacrilegious) which raises questions about the location of the speaking Frenchman's head, that this is all he has to speak of.

So I wonder, why would expecting a significantly different culture in a fantasy world set at a different time to have identical profanity to that which is common to the reader be considered 'realistic'? I would expect it to be the other way 'round. And yet it isn't.

But yes, that is kinda funny :P For me, having read two of the author's works, there isn't graphic sex in them, but in the places where it appears, the scenes fit with the overall mood/tone of the story. I think an argument (a very debatable one, though) could be made that the depictions of violence and sex are a bit skewed in this series. One doesn't need to say "Oh, Elayne, I'm going to fuck you in the cornhole until you scream 'Let the Dragon ride again!' baby!" to have intimate scenes that correlate better with the depictions of fireballs, explosions, and limbs being blown apart. Perhaps just a depiction that's closer to how young adults experience emotional relationships rather than an odd, stilted viewpoint on emotional/sexual relationships?


Well, if that were the case I wouldn't complain, in part because it might be valid criticism, and in part because I am definitely not ideally suited for arguing on such a subject.

However, I do not feel that is what the authour is about. Take the following, from the criticism of The Dragon Reborn:

So, for instance, The Dragon Reborn remains coy on the subject of sex. In one chapter Mat is visited in his bedroom by the evil Selene ('so beautiful he almost forgot to breathe';) which causes the young lad 'tingle and pain' [227] as well it might; but nothing more explicit is stated. (Then again, chapter 42 is called 'Easing the Badger', which may well become my new favourite onanistic euphemism). There's spits and spots of violence, but this all feels been-there-done-that tired -- already! and we're only in vol. 3!


He's not commenting about a flawed depiction of emotional relationships, I'm pretty sure he's just mocking Jordan for dodging his way out of saying that Mat had an erection. And the second part also shows that it isn't a criticism of the sex-to-violence descriptions, as he also considers the violence underwhelming.

Now, personally I agree with you that violence is far more easily broached than sex in the series, but from what I know about American exported media, it seems to be a prevalent trait in the United States to be prudish and enjoy violence. Not that we're significantly different here, but such a difference doesn't really surprise me from RJ.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
The Darkness That Zelda Deserves
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 03/04/2010 at 09:31:42 AM
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Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 19/03/2010 09:30:25 PM 10149 Views
A question for Larry - 19/03/2010 09:40:37 PM 2153 Views
Roberto Bolaño - 19/03/2010 11:09:57 PM 1905 Views
I completely agree with his review. - 19/03/2010 11:11:17 PM 2100 Views
Ouch! Somebody pull that guy off RJ! *NM* - 20/03/2010 03:47:07 AM 961 Views
Can't say that I really disagree. - 20/03/2010 05:19:26 AM 1464 Views
My problem with the reviews: - 20/03/2010 06:29:08 AM 2010 Views
Hear Hear !!! ....................... = ........................ *NM* - 20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM 918 Views
I agree - 20/03/2010 11:19:29 AM 1557 Views
You know what else I'm finding annoying? - 07/04/2010 07:29:37 AM 1480 Views
Fully Agree *NM* - 21/06/2010 12:41:05 AM 810 Views
well I agree and disagree - 20/03/2010 06:51:29 AM 1835 Views
Re: well I agree and disagree - 20/03/2010 02:12:43 PM 1370 Views
I'd say just The Eye of the World - 20/03/2010 05:26:19 PM 1366 Views
Indeed - 21/03/2010 12:34:19 AM 1381 Views
These reviews are pathetic - 20/03/2010 12:52:22 PM 1361 Views
I'm amused by some of the responses - 20/03/2010 07:20:03 PM 1721 Views
+1 *NM* - 20/03/2010 10:48:14 PM 917 Views
Are you suggesting that we are unqualified to disagree with him ? - 20/03/2010 11:21:44 PM 1533 Views
No, I said rather that it's ridiculous to make such disparaging comments about his takes - 20/03/2010 11:37:56 PM 1571 Views
I considered doing so - 21/03/2010 12:27:27 AM 1358 Views
I will reply to myself: What's the problem McFly , chicken ? - 21/03/2010 12:29:36 AM 1332 Views
My sister called me chicken once - 10/04/2010 01:18:31 AM 1350 Views
what's wrong runt... are you yellah? *NM* - 10/04/2010 10:40:16 AM 897 Views
NICE! *NM* - 10/04/2010 02:19:44 PM 768 Views
Re: I'm amused by some of the responses - 23/03/2010 04:50:42 PM 1443 Views
And I'm even more amused by this response - 24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM 1382 Views
Re: And I'm even more amused by this response - 24/03/2010 03:03:28 AM 1247 Views
Nah, TGS was the only serious review of the series I've done - 24/03/2010 04:31:28 AM 1300 Views
On a completely unrelated note... - 24/03/2010 06:15:25 AM 1170 Views
Ha! - 24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM 1310 Views
My congratulations then . *NM* - 24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM 1204 Views
You say it as if I had been condemned to hell! - 24/03/2010 07:13:45 AM 1117 Views
No. Well, maybe. - 24/03/2010 06:52:28 PM 1229 Views
! - 24/03/2010 06:54:34 PM 1273 Views
Re: Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 22/03/2010 02:47:23 PM 1346 Views
Re: Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 23/03/2010 01:53:16 PM 1356 Views
Wow, you guys have completely missed the point of the Wheel of Time series - 22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM 1387 Views
There's a point to it? - 22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM 1382 Views
I thought the point was to write about a bunch of stuff happening? - 09/04/2010 03:42:49 PM 1382 Views
Re: Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 23/03/2010 04:54:38 PM 1309 Views
pfft wth-ever - 26/03/2010 12:35:53 AM 1199 Views
Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was - 26/03/2010 12:28:19 PM 1438 Views
bla bla bla - 29/03/2010 06:17:07 AM 1288 Views
Usually, it's spelled "blah" - 29/03/2010 07:03:51 AM 1302 Views
Wow. That post was more entertaining than Mr. Roberts' review. Thank you *NM* - 29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM 1096 Views
You must have low standards for entertainment - 29/03/2010 08:54:03 AM 1274 Views
Re: You must have low standards for entertainment - 29/03/2010 09:13:44 AM 1377 Views
I know you were, thus the at the least of my comment - 29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM 1254 Views
Unimpressed - 29/03/2010 10:50:07 PM 1617 Views
Thank you - 30/03/2010 12:35:39 AM 1188 Views
*Standing ovation for DomA* - 30/03/2010 07:36:59 AM 1393 Views
Yes. Also, Roberts is a wanker. *NM* - 05/04/2010 09:28:57 PM 925 Views
Re: Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was - 29/03/2010 04:32:23 PM 1378 Views
Might want to re-read their Wikis again. - 29/03/2010 07:07:11 PM 1255 Views
Awards - 29/03/2010 07:42:03 PM 1247 Views
That link is out of date - 29/03/2010 07:54:56 PM 1213 Views
Re: That link is out of date - 29/03/2010 08:22:03 PM 1348 Views
This is a battle of win/lose? - 29/03/2010 08:47:54 PM 1273 Views
Re: This is a battle of win/lose? - 29/03/2010 09:03:07 PM 1324 Views
*considers employing the Chewbacca defense* - 29/03/2010 09:28:06 PM 1303 Views
Re: *considers employing the Chewbacca defense* - 29/03/2010 09:44:58 PM 1354 Views
The final point explains the "defense" - 30/03/2010 12:24:56 AM 1183 Views
Re: The final point explains the "defense" - 30/03/2010 01:33:04 PM 1198 Views
No, no, no - 30/03/2010 06:38:41 PM 1255 Views
Re: No, no, no - 30/03/2010 07:51:34 PM 1299 Views
Still continuing, huh? - 31/03/2010 02:10:13 AM 1296 Views
Re: Still continuing, huh? - 31/03/2010 03:56:57 PM 1214 Views
Those were polls - 31/03/2010 08:46:07 PM 1247 Views
Re: Those were polls - 05/04/2010 03:22:13 PM 1204 Views
Does it gives him right to insult me? - 13/04/2011 02:10:32 PM 1203 Views
I wouldn't know. Was he speaking directly to you? - 14/04/2011 11:28:16 PM 1349 Views
He's now reviewed the third book - 26/03/2010 12:27:16 PM 1423 Views
Well, this time I must disagree with him . - 29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM 1242 Views
I don't think he was claiming that RJ was alone in doing that - 29/03/2010 07:44:07 AM 1214 Views
Hah! - 29/03/2010 06:07:28 PM 1214 Views
Well... - 29/03/2010 06:52:10 PM 1203 Views
Differing perspectives, I guess. - 29/03/2010 07:58:13 PM 1278 Views
I suppose - 29/03/2010 08:50:43 PM 1215 Views
Re: I suppose - 30/03/2010 12:18:30 AM 1366 Views
True - 30/03/2010 12:23:28 AM 1214 Views
Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue? - 30/03/2010 12:52:01 AM 1128 Views
Re: Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue? - 30/03/2010 07:45:08 AM 1254 Views
But why only them? - 30/03/2010 08:07:00 AM 1278 Views
Re: But why only them? - 30/03/2010 03:56:54 PM 1234 Views
Re: But why only them? - 30/03/2010 08:29:37 PM 1319 Views
I really liked a lot of the minor characters in The Great Hunt. - 30/03/2010 12:49:03 AM 1287 Views
I barely thought twice about those, to be honest - 30/03/2010 06:39:55 PM 1273 Views
I can't wait what he's going to try to do with TFoH and beyond - 28/03/2010 08:18:59 PM 1315 Views
Glad you enjoyed it - 29/03/2010 09:33:43 PM 1146 Views
The Shadow Rising review - 02/04/2010 09:42:53 AM 1407 Views
I wonder if this borders on trolling - 02/04/2010 02:29:58 PM 10021 Views
You want complaining? You got it... - 02/04/2010 06:38:09 PM 1315 Views
That would be a mistake - 02/04/2010 09:16:25 PM 1479 Views
Re: That would be a mistake - 02/04/2010 10:28:56 PM 1204 Views
I agree, Roberts is more and more coming across to me as just bitter - 10/04/2010 01:24:52 AM 1341 Views
Little late to this one as well - 10/04/2010 11:12:04 AM 1384 Views
Perhaps you should have led with this bit - 10/04/2010 02:52:23 PM 1430 Views
Re: I wonder if this borders on trolling - 04/04/2010 09:16:22 AM 1281 Views
What review? I couldn't find one... - 02/04/2010 08:00:45 PM 1470 Views
Re: What review? I couldn't find one... - 02/04/2010 09:22:13 PM 1439 Views
See my comment below - 02/04/2010 09:32:54 PM 1427 Views
Re: See my comment below - 03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM 1856 Views
Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week - 07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM 1663 Views
Yes, I can probably agree with what you say here. - 08/04/2010 12:29:16 AM 1158 Views
- 08/04/2010 12:32:53 AM 1246 Views
I agree completely. *NM* - 02/04/2010 09:53:44 PM 813 Views
Speaking of irritation - 02/04/2010 10:50:04 PM 1421 Views
Commentary, then? - 02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM 1239 Views
Here's the thing... - 02/04/2010 10:11:18 PM 1255 Views
Re: Here's the thing... - 02/04/2010 10:31:56 PM 1138 Views
Re: Here's the thing... - 03/04/2010 01:34:05 AM 1165 Views
I somehow overlooked this last week, it seems - 10/04/2010 11:01:17 AM 1451 Views
Indeed - 02/04/2010 10:34:00 PM 1122 Views
Re: Commentary, then? - 05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM 1227 Views
for a man that bitterly complains about an author who is padding his work - 08/04/2010 09:41:07 PM 1377 Views
1400 words is long-winded? - 09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM 1417 Views
since you can sum up those 1400 words in about 25 yes that's longwinded - 09/04/2010 01:36:16 PM 1283 Views
Except I didn't really sum it up, as I left out quite a bit - 10/04/2010 11:15:42 AM 1355 Views
You are very defensive over this - 10/04/2010 01:54:15 PM 1132 Views
Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else - 12/04/2010 03:57:12 AM 1214 Views
Re: Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else - 12/04/2010 05:30:53 PM 1135 Views
You sound like a Goodkind webmaster from a couple of years ago - 12/04/2010 06:58:42 PM 1211 Views
You don't come across as a devil's advocate - 30/03/2011 03:07:32 PM 1163 Views
Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts - 07/04/2010 08:59:28 PM 1328 Views
I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes! - 07/04/2010 09:50:39 PM 1255 Views
Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes! - 08/04/2010 01:06:20 PM 1125 Views
Which Invisible Man? - 09/04/2010 09:58:44 AM 1322 Views
Re: Which Invisible Man? - 09/04/2010 01:26:42 PM 1226 Views
I have a very different take on that book - 10/04/2010 11:17:13 AM 1212 Views
Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes! - 09/04/2010 01:45:44 PM 1272 Views
Hrmm... - 10/04/2010 11:19:01 AM 1090 Views
Re: Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts - 12/04/2010 05:37:36 PM 1304 Views
He brings up some interesting points, if in an unnecessarily rude manner - 08/04/2010 12:42:25 PM 1259 Views
To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much - 09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM 1277 Views
Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much - 09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM 1785 Views
Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much - 10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM 1194 Views
why are you so bothered by people being unimpressed with Roberts? - 10/04/2010 02:19:08 PM 1326 Views
I don't understand it either - 11/04/2010 12:44:25 PM 1287 Views
right? - 11/04/2010 02:13:00 PM 1293 Views
Nah - 12/04/2010 04:13:44 AM 1092 Views
And in vol. 5, Roberts discovers the horrors of the circus - 09/04/2010 09:57:03 AM 1229 Views
5 reviews without saying more than "I hate the series" - 09/04/2010 01:31:13 PM 1157 Views
Basically he just states the "nothing happens"-argument... - 09/04/2010 03:26:02 PM 1149 Views
Well, what was really resolved here? - 10/04/2010 11:25:25 AM 1151 Views
Well... - 12/04/2010 05:05:20 PM 1343 Views
well exactly - 12/04/2010 05:33:11 PM 1364 Views
So very little was resolved and much was set into motion, then? - 12/04/2010 06:55:45 PM 1316 Views
Yes... - 12/04/2010 10:51:08 PM 1108 Views
Ever read Umberto Eco's How To Travel with a Salmon? - 12/04/2010 11:07:19 PM 1315 Views
I guess... - 13/04/2010 10:03:03 AM 1360 Views
Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest - 13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM 2510 Views
Nah... - 13/04/2010 05:29:34 PM 1115 Views
He's read and enjoyed Proust, among others - 13/04/2010 07:37:39 PM 1162 Views
Ah, well... - 13/04/2010 09:45:45 PM 1135 Views
Dismissive, much? - 13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM 1275 Views
About that bifurcation... - 14/04/2010 02:02:15 AM 1248 Views
I'm rather moderate - 14/04/2010 10:11:30 AM 1158 Views
I'm just a liberation theologist at heart - 15/04/2010 01:51:16 PM 2085 Views
So, if you don't mind... - 13/04/2010 05:51:06 AM 1235 Views
That's fine with me - 13/04/2010 06:31:41 AM 1206 Views
I'm sorry, but he's totally right. "The Circus" made me put down this series for 5 YEARS. - 09/04/2010 03:38:16 PM 1235 Views
I didn't find it quite that bad, but... - 11/04/2010 08:27:52 AM 1130 Views
LoC represented a sharp drop in quality!!? - 19/05/2010 03:27:21 PM 1254 Views
And ignores everything else... - 09/04/2010 05:10:00 PM 1306 Views
Inchoatus went offline a couple of years ago - 10/04/2010 11:42:26 AM 2221 Views
This guy is going to get what he deserves... - 09/04/2010 10:26:14 PM 1215 Views
I'm waiting with bated breath for his CoT review *NM* - 10/04/2010 01:00:59 PM 898 Views
Just wanted to point out that he is not reviewing the series. - 16/04/2010 04:04:49 PM 1231 Views
Lord of Chaos commentary - 16/04/2010 03:39:39 PM 1249 Views
He has reached - The Hump. - 16/04/2010 03:55:51 PM 1202 Views
Re: He has reached - The Hump. - 18/04/2010 08:08:59 AM 1430 Views
No no. It was Lord of Heaven! - 16/04/2010 05:51:11 PM 1159 Views
Yeah, I noticed that - 16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM 1069 Views
I would love the see him review Goodkind... - 16/04/2010 11:51:07 PM 1251 Views
Finally re-read that post - 20/04/2010 09:35:45 PM 1209 Views
The magic items are mostly irrelevant... - 21/04/2010 03:37:36 AM 1222 Views
A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn? - 23/04/2010 08:36:17 AM 1320 Views
Re: A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn? - 29/04/2010 06:02:28 PM 1222 Views
I disagree - 29/04/2010 09:34:49 PM 1085 Views
I agree. - 29/04/2010 09:45:29 PM 1277 Views
Took me a moment to realize with whom you were agreeing - 29/04/2010 10:19:05 PM 1163 Views
Well, I did mention the necklines get overdone... - 06/05/2010 06:17:46 PM 1525 Views
Well, there's now also the tea to comment about - 07/05/2010 11:29:03 AM 1263 Views
A bit of a stumble this week - 30/04/2010 01:53:31 PM 1316 Views
The Path of Daggers commentary - 07/05/2010 10:39:03 AM 1300 Views
You'd think a Brit would like the tea... *NM* - 11/05/2010 04:05:42 PM 783 Views
Maybe he's just a contrarian? - 11/05/2010 07:55:43 PM 1144 Views
Winter's Heart - 21/05/2010 12:46:14 PM 1308 Views
To be fair - 21/05/2010 01:56:49 PM 1412 Views
I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read - 21/05/2010 04:49:31 PM 1198 Views
Re: I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read - 25/05/2010 05:05:09 PM 1388 Views
WH was my least favorite novel in the series, and that is saying a lot. - 28/05/2010 03:15:13 PM 1297 Views
I completely agree with his KoD post. Here is my favorite quote: - 28/05/2010 03:08:31 PM 1492 Views
CoT, you mean (link to actual post included) - 28/05/2010 04:56:10 PM 1319 Views
Yep, I meant COT. *NM* - 28/05/2010 07:02:48 PM 777 Views
Knife of Dreams - 18/06/2010 09:07:27 AM 1223 Views
Re: Knife of Dreams - 19/06/2010 05:49:38 AM 1287 Views
Agree... - 19/06/2010 05:08:44 PM 1281 Views
Roberts reflects back on WoT 1-11, with answers to questions asked of him - 25/06/2010 12:51:29 PM 1295 Views
This guy should be burned at the stake - 25/06/2010 03:22:34 PM 8707 Views
Are you done making a fool out of yourself, Mark? - 26/06/2010 06:53:37 PM 1248 Views
Oh come on... - 26/06/2010 09:06:01 PM 1368 Views
Well, the burning at the stake was a bit much... - 26/06/2010 10:19:40 PM 1364 Views
Well, really! You brought the comment to his notice... - 26/06/2010 11:34:08 PM 1321 Views
And your point is...? - 27/06/2010 12:37:00 AM 1400 Views
Well... - 27/06/2010 05:38:12 AM 1340 Views
Indeed... I think it's rather clear that Larry's goal has been to cause trouble - 27/06/2010 10:57:36 AM 1478 Views
There is no "borderline" about it. - 28/03/2011 05:17:15 PM 1218 Views
Ridiculous - 27/06/2010 06:38:46 AM 1248 Views
I like his FAQ and his overall musings on its' popularity. - 29/06/2010 06:35:10 PM 1318 Views
One year later... - 27/03/2011 03:40:29 AM 1241 Views
Re: One year later... - 28/03/2011 05:03:32 PM 1157 Views
I see you subconsciously support critical takes. - 28/03/2011 11:41:48 PM 1461 Views
No I conciously support telling you and him that you are pathetic, arrogent, & jelous. *NM* - 30/03/2011 01:40:36 PM 849 Views
Jealous? - 30/03/2011 05:20:32 PM 1210 Views
I agree, I didn't even notice it was an old post, definitely did not deserve to be revived. *NM* - 30/03/2011 02:41:12 PM 760 Views
Seconded. - 30/03/2011 04:04:36 PM 1118 Views
Now I notice as well that this is a year old. You're very silly, Larry, very silly. *NM* - 30/03/2011 04:13:38 PM 798 Views
Yep! - 30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM 1143 Views
Jeez Larry, you're starting to sound like a GRRM detractor. - 31/03/2011 03:01:38 PM 1259 Views
Nah, no detractor - 01/04/2011 03:00:41 PM 1361 Views
Could a thread be locked? - 31/03/2011 07:48:26 PM 1137 Views
Re: One year later... - 01/04/2011 02:55:02 AM 1414 Views
Yep - 01/04/2011 02:57:52 PM 1293 Views

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