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Re: See my comment below Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM
Well, it's probably more of a general comment than anything related to this topic specifically, it just gave me an excuse to post about something that's been irritating me a lot. Too many people seem to be equating cynicism with realism. I appreciate stories set in a darker tone, but I also enjoy idealistic ones. And frankly, whenever someone accuses The Lord of the Rings of not being realistic I can only wonder if they are idiots. It is pretty obvious that it was never intended to be thus. Something cannot fail at achieving something that wasn't it's objective in the first place. Like picking up some centuries old classic and complaining that it doesn't address modern issues, or watching porn and complaining that it doesn't have deep and engaging plots. True, certainly, but why would you expect them to?

I've read of people expecting obviously idealistic stories to be more cynical. Do you know The Legend of Zelda? A popular video game, where you incarnate the silent protagonist Link who embodies the virtue of Courage as he seeks to retrieve the magical Sword of Evil's Bane that only the True Hero can wield and use it to vanquish the Dark Lord Ganondorf and save the Princess Zelda. And yes, those capitalisations were necessary, I think. Anyway, you'd expect that with such a pretty obvious core it would be quite obvious that it isn't aiming for a dark and grim mood that gets proposed as 'realistic'. And yet, I recently read someone who wrote that he felt the series needed just that (link provided). I can only wonder, why? There is no lack of games that offer this perspective to players, should it be what they desire. Why would you want to turn a game that obviously has the opposite theme and bludgeon it to fit your perspective of what a good story should be?

Furthermore, sometimes it doesn't even follow anything as clear as that. Some people just use 'realism' as a definition of anything they see fit. I remember reading such a complaint about Robert Jordan's profanity in The Wheel of Time from the Westeros forums. Things like 'mother's milk in a cup' and so forth, being 'unrealistic'. I can only wonder. I've nearly only heard popular American profanity from some of my friends who have been in the army and served in the company of English Canadians, and it isn't because I only know very well mannered people. Likewise, the profanity in common use around here could probably be written on this board with no fear of Sidious reprimanding me, I'm sure.

Even in France - same language, same religion - Québecois profanity would be more a source of amusement and curiosity than offence. And the same goes inversely, I do hear a lot of joking about French profanity - it is very anally-centred (whereas ours is sacrilegious) which raises questions about the location of the speaking Frenchman's head, that this is all he has to speak of.

So I wonder, why would expecting a significantly different culture in a fantasy world set at a different time to have identical profanity to that which is common to the reader be considered 'realistic'? I would expect it to be the other way 'round. And yet it isn't.

But yes, that is kinda funny :P For me, having read two of the author's works, there isn't graphic sex in them, but in the places where it appears, the scenes fit with the overall mood/tone of the story. I think an argument (a very debatable one, though) could be made that the depictions of violence and sex are a bit skewed in this series. One doesn't need to say "Oh, Elayne, I'm going to fuck you in the cornhole until you scream 'Let the Dragon ride again!' baby!" to have intimate scenes that correlate better with the depictions of fireballs, explosions, and limbs being blown apart. Perhaps just a depiction that's closer to how young adults experience emotional relationships rather than an odd, stilted viewpoint on emotional/sexual relationships?


Well, if that were the case I wouldn't complain, in part because it might be valid criticism, and in part because I am definitely not ideally suited for arguing on such a subject.

However, I do not feel that is what the authour is about. Take the following, from the criticism of The Dragon Reborn:

So, for instance, The Dragon Reborn remains coy on the subject of sex. In one chapter Mat is visited in his bedroom by the evil Selene ('so beautiful he almost forgot to breathe';) which causes the young lad 'tingle and pain' [227] as well it might; but nothing more explicit is stated. (Then again, chapter 42 is called 'Easing the Badger', which may well become my new favourite onanistic euphemism). There's spits and spots of violence, but this all feels been-there-done-that tired -- already! and we're only in vol. 3!


He's not commenting about a flawed depiction of emotional relationships, I'm pretty sure he's just mocking Jordan for dodging his way out of saying that Mat had an erection. And the second part also shows that it isn't a criticism of the sex-to-violence descriptions, as he also considers the violence underwhelming.

Now, personally I agree with you that violence is far more easily broached than sex in the series, but from what I know about American exported media, it seems to be a prevalent trait in the United States to be prudish and enjoy violence. Not that we're significantly different here, but such a difference doesn't really surprise me from RJ.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. signature_images/108.gif
The Darkness That Zelda Deserves
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 03/04/2010 at 09:31:42 AM
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Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 19/03/2010 09:30:25 PM 9871 Views
A question for Larry - 19/03/2010 09:40:37 PM 2048 Views
Roberto Bolaño - 19/03/2010 11:09:57 PM 1816 Views
I completely agree with his review. - 19/03/2010 11:11:17 PM 1982 Views
Ouch! Somebody pull that guy off RJ! *NM* - 20/03/2010 03:47:07 AM 880 Views
Can't say that I really disagree. - 20/03/2010 05:19:26 AM 1367 Views
My problem with the reviews: - 20/03/2010 06:29:08 AM 1912 Views
Hear Hear !!! ....................... = ........................ *NM* - 20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM 854 Views
I agree - 20/03/2010 11:19:29 AM 1440 Views
You know what else I'm finding annoying? - 07/04/2010 07:29:37 AM 1379 Views
Fully Agree *NM* - 21/06/2010 12:41:05 AM 745 Views
well I agree and disagree - 20/03/2010 06:51:29 AM 1725 Views
Re: well I agree and disagree - 20/03/2010 02:12:43 PM 1276 Views
I'd say just The Eye of the World - 20/03/2010 05:26:19 PM 1267 Views
Indeed - 21/03/2010 12:34:19 AM 1279 Views
These reviews are pathetic - 20/03/2010 12:52:22 PM 1266 Views
I'm amused by some of the responses - 20/03/2010 07:20:03 PM 1619 Views
+1 *NM* - 20/03/2010 10:48:14 PM 841 Views
Are you suggesting that we are unqualified to disagree with him ? - 20/03/2010 11:21:44 PM 1439 Views
No, I said rather that it's ridiculous to make such disparaging comments about his takes - 20/03/2010 11:37:56 PM 1475 Views
I considered doing so - 21/03/2010 12:27:27 AM 1261 Views
I will reply to myself: What's the problem McFly , chicken ? - 21/03/2010 12:29:36 AM 1216 Views
My sister called me chicken once - 10/04/2010 01:18:31 AM 1259 Views
what's wrong runt... are you yellah? *NM* - 10/04/2010 10:40:16 AM 840 Views
NICE! *NM* - 10/04/2010 02:19:44 PM 698 Views
Re: I'm amused by some of the responses - 23/03/2010 04:50:42 PM 1356 Views
And I'm even more amused by this response - 24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM 1279 Views
Re: And I'm even more amused by this response - 24/03/2010 03:03:28 AM 1164 Views
Nah, TGS was the only serious review of the series I've done - 24/03/2010 04:31:28 AM 1202 Views
On a completely unrelated note... - 24/03/2010 06:15:25 AM 1070 Views
Ha! - 24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM 1222 Views
My congratulations then . *NM* - 24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM 1115 Views
You say it as if I had been condemned to hell! - 24/03/2010 07:13:45 AM 1039 Views
No. Well, maybe. - 24/03/2010 06:52:28 PM 1124 Views
! - 24/03/2010 06:54:34 PM 1179 Views
Re: Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 22/03/2010 02:47:23 PM 1236 Views
Re: Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 23/03/2010 01:53:16 PM 1245 Views
Wow, you guys have completely missed the point of the Wheel of Time series - 22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM 1300 Views
There's a point to it? - 22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM 1293 Views
I thought the point was to write about a bunch of stuff happening? - 09/04/2010 03:42:49 PM 1281 Views
Re: Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT. - 23/03/2010 04:54:38 PM 1214 Views
pfft wth-ever - 26/03/2010 12:35:53 AM 1086 Views
Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was - 26/03/2010 12:28:19 PM 1322 Views
bla bla bla - 29/03/2010 06:17:07 AM 1191 Views
Usually, it's spelled "blah" - 29/03/2010 07:03:51 AM 1215 Views
Wow. That post was more entertaining than Mr. Roberts' review. Thank you *NM* - 29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM 1042 Views
You must have low standards for entertainment - 29/03/2010 08:54:03 AM 1176 Views
Re: You must have low standards for entertainment - 29/03/2010 09:13:44 AM 1286 Views
I know you were, thus the at the least of my comment - 29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM 1172 Views
Unimpressed - 29/03/2010 10:50:07 PM 1530 Views
Thank you - 30/03/2010 12:35:39 AM 1111 Views
*Standing ovation for DomA* - 30/03/2010 07:36:59 AM 1307 Views
Yes. Also, Roberts is a wanker. *NM* - 05/04/2010 09:28:57 PM 860 Views
Re: Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was - 29/03/2010 04:32:23 PM 1279 Views
Might want to re-read their Wikis again. - 29/03/2010 07:07:11 PM 1174 Views
Awards - 29/03/2010 07:42:03 PM 1153 Views
That link is out of date - 29/03/2010 07:54:56 PM 1127 Views
Re: That link is out of date - 29/03/2010 08:22:03 PM 1255 Views
This is a battle of win/lose? - 29/03/2010 08:47:54 PM 1181 Views
Re: This is a battle of win/lose? - 29/03/2010 09:03:07 PM 1238 Views
*considers employing the Chewbacca defense* - 29/03/2010 09:28:06 PM 1210 Views
Re: *considers employing the Chewbacca defense* - 29/03/2010 09:44:58 PM 1244 Views
The final point explains the "defense" - 30/03/2010 12:24:56 AM 1095 Views
Re: The final point explains the "defense" - 30/03/2010 01:33:04 PM 1089 Views
No, no, no - 30/03/2010 06:38:41 PM 1161 Views
Re: No, no, no - 30/03/2010 07:51:34 PM 1209 Views
Still continuing, huh? - 31/03/2010 02:10:13 AM 1210 Views
Re: Still continuing, huh? - 31/03/2010 03:56:57 PM 1131 Views
Those were polls - 31/03/2010 08:46:07 PM 1150 Views
Re: Those were polls - 05/04/2010 03:22:13 PM 1097 Views
Does it gives him right to insult me? - 13/04/2011 02:10:32 PM 1100 Views
I wouldn't know. Was he speaking directly to you? - 14/04/2011 11:28:16 PM 1266 Views
He's now reviewed the third book - 26/03/2010 12:27:16 PM 1323 Views
Well, this time I must disagree with him . - 29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM 1157 Views
I don't think he was claiming that RJ was alone in doing that - 29/03/2010 07:44:07 AM 1119 Views
Hah! - 29/03/2010 06:07:28 PM 1120 Views
Well... - 29/03/2010 06:52:10 PM 1108 Views
Differing perspectives, I guess. - 29/03/2010 07:58:13 PM 1182 Views
I suppose - 29/03/2010 08:50:43 PM 1121 Views
Re: I suppose - 30/03/2010 12:18:30 AM 1279 Views
True - 30/03/2010 12:23:28 AM 1115 Views
Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue? - 30/03/2010 12:52:01 AM 1027 Views
Re: Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue? - 30/03/2010 07:45:08 AM 1160 Views
But why only them? - 30/03/2010 08:07:00 AM 1193 Views
Re: But why only them? - 30/03/2010 03:56:54 PM 1138 Views
Re: But why only them? - 30/03/2010 08:29:37 PM 1224 Views
I really liked a lot of the minor characters in The Great Hunt. - 30/03/2010 12:49:03 AM 1203 Views
I barely thought twice about those, to be honest - 30/03/2010 06:39:55 PM 1179 Views
I can't wait what he's going to try to do with TFoH and beyond - 28/03/2010 08:18:59 PM 1217 Views
Glad you enjoyed it - 29/03/2010 09:33:43 PM 1059 Views
The Shadow Rising review - 02/04/2010 09:42:53 AM 1307 Views
I wonder if this borders on trolling - 02/04/2010 02:29:58 PM 9925 Views
You want complaining? You got it... - 02/04/2010 06:38:09 PM 1212 Views
That would be a mistake - 02/04/2010 09:16:25 PM 1386 Views
Re: That would be a mistake - 02/04/2010 10:28:56 PM 1102 Views
I agree, Roberts is more and more coming across to me as just bitter - 10/04/2010 01:24:52 AM 1244 Views
Little late to this one as well - 10/04/2010 11:12:04 AM 1287 Views
Perhaps you should have led with this bit - 10/04/2010 02:52:23 PM 1341 Views
Re: I wonder if this borders on trolling - 04/04/2010 09:16:22 AM 1188 Views
What review? I couldn't find one... - 02/04/2010 08:00:45 PM 1381 Views
Re: What review? I couldn't find one... - 02/04/2010 09:22:13 PM 1349 Views
See my comment below - 02/04/2010 09:32:54 PM 1342 Views
Re: See my comment below - 03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM 1767 Views
Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week - 07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM 1567 Views
Yes, I can probably agree with what you say here. - 08/04/2010 12:29:16 AM 1068 Views
- 08/04/2010 12:32:53 AM 1161 Views
I agree completely. *NM* - 02/04/2010 09:53:44 PM 745 Views
Speaking of irritation - 02/04/2010 10:50:04 PM 1329 Views
Commentary, then? - 02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM 1163 Views
Here's the thing... - 02/04/2010 10:11:18 PM 1163 Views
Re: Here's the thing... - 02/04/2010 10:31:56 PM 1042 Views
Re: Here's the thing... - 03/04/2010 01:34:05 AM 1080 Views
I somehow overlooked this last week, it seems - 10/04/2010 11:01:17 AM 1360 Views
Indeed - 02/04/2010 10:34:00 PM 1033 Views
Re: Commentary, then? - 05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM 1125 Views
for a man that bitterly complains about an author who is padding his work - 08/04/2010 09:41:07 PM 1277 Views
1400 words is long-winded? - 09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM 1331 Views
since you can sum up those 1400 words in about 25 yes that's longwinded - 09/04/2010 01:36:16 PM 1194 Views
Except I didn't really sum it up, as I left out quite a bit - 10/04/2010 11:15:42 AM 1262 Views
You are very defensive over this - 10/04/2010 01:54:15 PM 1035 Views
Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else - 12/04/2010 03:57:12 AM 1110 Views
Re: Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else - 12/04/2010 05:30:53 PM 1043 Views
You sound like a Goodkind webmaster from a couple of years ago - 12/04/2010 06:58:42 PM 1129 Views
You don't come across as a devil's advocate - 30/03/2011 03:07:32 PM 1067 Views
Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts - 07/04/2010 08:59:28 PM 1224 Views
I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes! - 07/04/2010 09:50:39 PM 1159 Views
Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes! - 08/04/2010 01:06:20 PM 1034 Views
Which Invisible Man? - 09/04/2010 09:58:44 AM 1231 Views
Re: Which Invisible Man? - 09/04/2010 01:26:42 PM 1139 Views
I have a very different take on that book - 10/04/2010 11:17:13 AM 1111 Views
Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes! - 09/04/2010 01:45:44 PM 1186 Views
Hrmm... - 10/04/2010 11:19:01 AM 996 Views
Re: Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts - 12/04/2010 05:37:36 PM 1209 Views
He brings up some interesting points, if in an unnecessarily rude manner - 08/04/2010 12:42:25 PM 1166 Views
To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much - 09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM 1194 Views
Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much - 09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM 1709 Views
Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much - 10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM 1108 Views
why are you so bothered by people being unimpressed with Roberts? - 10/04/2010 02:19:08 PM 1228 Views
I don't understand it either - 11/04/2010 12:44:25 PM 1191 Views
right? - 11/04/2010 02:13:00 PM 1201 Views
Nah - 12/04/2010 04:13:44 AM 995 Views
And in vol. 5, Roberts discovers the horrors of the circus - 09/04/2010 09:57:03 AM 1123 Views
5 reviews without saying more than "I hate the series" - 09/04/2010 01:31:13 PM 1056 Views
Basically he just states the "nothing happens"-argument... - 09/04/2010 03:26:02 PM 1041 Views
Well, what was really resolved here? - 10/04/2010 11:25:25 AM 1057 Views
Well... - 12/04/2010 05:05:20 PM 1252 Views
well exactly - 12/04/2010 05:33:11 PM 1274 Views
So very little was resolved and much was set into motion, then? - 12/04/2010 06:55:45 PM 1222 Views
Yes... - 12/04/2010 10:51:08 PM 1013 Views
Ever read Umberto Eco's How To Travel with a Salmon? - 12/04/2010 11:07:19 PM 1217 Views
I guess... - 13/04/2010 10:03:03 AM 1267 Views
Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest - 13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM 2423 Views
Nah... - 13/04/2010 05:29:34 PM 1025 Views
He's read and enjoyed Proust, among others - 13/04/2010 07:37:39 PM 1065 Views
Ah, well... - 13/04/2010 09:45:45 PM 1041 Views
Dismissive, much? - 13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM 1191 Views
About that bifurcation... - 14/04/2010 02:02:15 AM 1160 Views
I'm rather moderate - 14/04/2010 10:11:30 AM 1070 Views
I'm just a liberation theologist at heart - 15/04/2010 01:51:16 PM 1994 Views
So, if you don't mind... - 13/04/2010 05:51:06 AM 1147 Views
That's fine with me - 13/04/2010 06:31:41 AM 1116 Views
I'm sorry, but he's totally right. "The Circus" made me put down this series for 5 YEARS. - 09/04/2010 03:38:16 PM 1129 Views
I didn't find it quite that bad, but... - 11/04/2010 08:27:52 AM 1038 Views
LoC represented a sharp drop in quality!!? - 19/05/2010 03:27:21 PM 1156 Views
And ignores everything else... - 09/04/2010 05:10:00 PM 1216 Views
Inchoatus went offline a couple of years ago - 10/04/2010 11:42:26 AM 2113 Views
This guy is going to get what he deserves... - 09/04/2010 10:26:14 PM 1120 Views
I'm waiting with bated breath for his CoT review *NM* - 10/04/2010 01:00:59 PM 833 Views
Just wanted to point out that he is not reviewing the series. - 16/04/2010 04:04:49 PM 1145 Views
Lord of Chaos commentary - 16/04/2010 03:39:39 PM 1149 Views
He has reached - The Hump. - 16/04/2010 03:55:51 PM 1110 Views
Re: He has reached - The Hump. - 18/04/2010 08:08:59 AM 1311 Views
No no. It was Lord of Heaven! - 16/04/2010 05:51:11 PM 1064 Views
Yeah, I noticed that - 16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM 986 Views
I would love the see him review Goodkind... - 16/04/2010 11:51:07 PM 1160 Views
Finally re-read that post - 20/04/2010 09:35:45 PM 1103 Views
The magic items are mostly irrelevant... - 21/04/2010 03:37:36 AM 1121 Views
A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn? - 23/04/2010 08:36:17 AM 1218 Views
Re: A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn? - 29/04/2010 06:02:28 PM 1116 Views
I disagree - 29/04/2010 09:34:49 PM 993 Views
I agree. - 29/04/2010 09:45:29 PM 1178 Views
Took me a moment to realize with whom you were agreeing - 29/04/2010 10:19:05 PM 1085 Views
Well, I did mention the necklines get overdone... - 06/05/2010 06:17:46 PM 1422 Views
Well, there's now also the tea to comment about - 07/05/2010 11:29:03 AM 1173 Views
A bit of a stumble this week - 30/04/2010 01:53:31 PM 1219 Views
The Path of Daggers commentary - 07/05/2010 10:39:03 AM 1201 Views
You'd think a Brit would like the tea... *NM* - 11/05/2010 04:05:42 PM 728 Views
Maybe he's just a contrarian? - 11/05/2010 07:55:43 PM 1055 Views
Winter's Heart - 21/05/2010 12:46:14 PM 1206 Views
To be fair - 21/05/2010 01:56:49 PM 1305 Views
I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read - 21/05/2010 04:49:31 PM 1108 Views
Re: I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read - 25/05/2010 05:05:09 PM 1290 Views
WH was my least favorite novel in the series, and that is saying a lot. - 28/05/2010 03:15:13 PM 1203 Views
I completely agree with his KoD post. Here is my favorite quote: - 28/05/2010 03:08:31 PM 1375 Views
CoT, you mean (link to actual post included) - 28/05/2010 04:56:10 PM 1222 Views
Yep, I meant COT. *NM* - 28/05/2010 07:02:48 PM 706 Views
Knife of Dreams - 18/06/2010 09:07:27 AM 1126 Views
Re: Knife of Dreams - 19/06/2010 05:49:38 AM 1201 Views
Agree... - 19/06/2010 05:08:44 PM 1185 Views
Roberts reflects back on WoT 1-11, with answers to questions asked of him - 25/06/2010 12:51:29 PM 1200 Views
This guy should be burned at the stake - 25/06/2010 03:22:34 PM 8591 Views
Are you done making a fool out of yourself, Mark? - 26/06/2010 06:53:37 PM 1158 Views
Oh come on... - 26/06/2010 09:06:01 PM 1286 Views
Well, the burning at the stake was a bit much... - 26/06/2010 10:19:40 PM 1270 Views
Well, really! You brought the comment to his notice... - 26/06/2010 11:34:08 PM 1225 Views
And your point is...? - 27/06/2010 12:37:00 AM 1306 Views
Well... - 27/06/2010 05:38:12 AM 1249 Views
Indeed... I think it's rather clear that Larry's goal has been to cause trouble - 27/06/2010 10:57:36 AM 1387 Views
There is no "borderline" about it. - 28/03/2011 05:17:15 PM 1130 Views
Ridiculous - 27/06/2010 06:38:46 AM 1160 Views
I like his FAQ and his overall musings on its' popularity. - 29/06/2010 06:35:10 PM 1227 Views
One year later... - 27/03/2011 03:40:29 AM 1139 Views
Re: One year later... - 28/03/2011 05:03:32 PM 1073 Views
I see you subconsciously support critical takes. - 28/03/2011 11:41:48 PM 1366 Views
No I conciously support telling you and him that you are pathetic, arrogent, & jelous. *NM* - 30/03/2011 01:40:36 PM 791 Views
Jealous? - 30/03/2011 05:20:32 PM 1125 Views
I agree, I didn't even notice it was an old post, definitely did not deserve to be revived. *NM* - 30/03/2011 02:41:12 PM 695 Views
Seconded. - 30/03/2011 04:04:36 PM 1023 Views
Now I notice as well that this is a year old. You're very silly, Larry, very silly. *NM* - 30/03/2011 04:13:38 PM 738 Views
Yep! - 30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM 1054 Views
Jeez Larry, you're starting to sound like a GRRM detractor. - 31/03/2011 03:01:38 PM 1160 Views
Nah, no detractor - 01/04/2011 03:00:41 PM 1279 Views
Could a thread be locked? - 31/03/2011 07:48:26 PM 1041 Views
Re: One year later... - 01/04/2011 02:55:02 AM 1307 Views
Yep - 01/04/2011 02:57:52 PM 1217 Views

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