Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
Larry Send a noteboard - 10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM

Like Roberts you seem to be missing the point. It's not about obsession, it's about enjoying something despite it's flaws.
And that's a good thing?
' />

The point I'm making is that Jordan went very deep into building a world, rather than creating a skeleton of a world and leaving it as "good enough". Poor public education is a whole other topic.
But when someone points out perceived flaws and doesn't praise what you praise, it's okay to roast that person without giving due consideration to what s/he has observed?
I think you missed out on the fun a few years ago of the "great clodding foot of nerdism" that another author, M. John Harrison, wrote in regards to "worldbuilding." Sometimes, less is more and more is much, much less.
I'd be careful not to confuse regulars at fansites with casual readers who tend to make up the majority of the readership of any book/series. And to be honest, I seem to recall thinking that having characters that were pretty much stereotypes was not clever, but rather an annoying character development shortcut.
I'm highly aware that the fan-site membership is representative of the fringe readers. However, I think you would be very surprised by the amount of data that can be taken from a sample of online readers who participate in forum discussion. The very fact that Jordan has so many dedicated fan-sites, is an indicator that a larger portion of his readers are more invested than someone like Roberts, who may be a technically better writer, but lacks a passionate fan base. That is a tale in and of itself. And for the record I have had many conversations with casual readers, most of whom can spout off amazing factoids about many WOT subjects. If you've spent 20 years reading a collection of novels you tend to retain quite a bit.
Or it's just a sign that he wrote MOR fantasy that most readers read as an equivalent of a popcorn flick. They don't want or care to think too much about it. Similar to how most of Terry Goodkind's readers are not supporters of his Objectivist-leaning thoughts, despite those opinions shaping several of his SoT novels.
Spending 20 years reading a series is not my idea of a fun time. Have too many books to review, short fiction to read for anthologies, and translations to be done in my spare time to spend too much time on any particular author or literary genre. But if that floats your boat, OK, but I just wouldn't think that would be SOP for most readers.
Oh, I'll agree there's a "weight" to it, but I don't quite share your appreciation for it, unfortunately. It was an interesting tale at one point (or else I wouldn't bother commenting on it), but the weight of its narrative and structural problems lessened that enjoyment to the point that I haven't read any of the first nine novels in nearly 10 years and the last three only once each, with little desire for a re-read of any. What you highlight as positives end up being negatives for me. I guess the internet acronym of YMMV is applicable here.
Then why continue to read it? Seems like a waste of energy and time to read something you don't enjoy. I can simply say that perhaps you need to get out of your head and let yourself enjoy the story. The more you bog yourself down with being irritated by poor syntax or literary devices you don't like the less you take away from the enjoyment of a rich storyline. Perhaps try listening to the audio books, I've recently downloaded a few of them (I've never listened to an audio book before mind you) and have found a rather different experience... some good, some not.
Like I said before, I don't spend much time on it. I read CoT in 2006, KoD and TGS in 2009 only because I received a review copy from Tor a week before the release date. I reviewed the former in a much more snarky fashion than Roberts has shown to date, in large part due to dares from a few regulars at wotmania, including Dom, incidentally. The other two were read just so I could review the book on time. Although I was pleasantly surprised by TGS, it was far from the best read I had in 2009 (for what I did like, you can always click on the link below) and that's chalked up to personal preferences and knowledge of what's available.
It is quite amusing how some think that just because one pays closer attention to how a story is constructed that s/he cannot appreciate the story being told as well. I'd argue that in several cases, the enjoyment can be heightened from being more aware of these things. I heard the audio samples and thought they were tedious. Of course, I can finish the typical book in about 2-3 hours if I decide to spend that much time on a work, so the audio parts tend to be too slow for my liking

Not to knock you for your reading preferences, but why don't you try other stories? Reading only one or a small handful of authors I would think would be very limiting on one's enjoyment of fiction.
Generally speaking I find other Fantasy and most Sci-fi bland and oddly unimaginative. I tend to mostly read non-fiction.
I used to read a lot of Fantasy, and have a few favorites that I still pick up from time to time, but over the years I've gotten board with an increasingly formulaic category of books. Perhaps Jordan is somewhat responsible for that 

Then you aren't reading enough types of fantasy, then. The books I mention in that link are very, very different from epic fantasies.
I think one of the reasons I enjoy Jordan so much is I can see how much effort he put into building each character, each nation etc... I find most other Fantasy authors to be rather lazy in that regard. Perhaps it's my age, when I was in my 20s I enjoyed the adventure aspects of Fantasy and read much more widely in the genre, in my 30s I've gotten more into depth of character and have had little luck in Fantasy, as I'm creep up on my 40s I find that fiction in general holds little appeal to me, I'd rather read a historical text or a research study!
I burned out on the research parts 13 years ago, after I earned my MA in History

Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.

Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT.
19/03/2010 09:30:25 PM
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Heh, While I agree with him about it being derivative, I still encourage people to read it.
20/03/2010 02:36:47 AM
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My problem with the reviews:
20/03/2010 06:29:08 AM
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Hear Hear !!!
.......................
=
........................ *NM*
20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM
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well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 06:51:29 AM
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Re: well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 02:12:43 PM
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I'm amused by some of the responses
20/03/2010 07:20:03 PM
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Are you suggesting that we are unqualified to disagree with him ?
20/03/2010 11:21:44 PM
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No, I said rather that it's ridiculous to make such disparaging comments about his takes
20/03/2010 11:37:56 PM
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I will reply to myself: What's the problem McFly , chicken ?
21/03/2010 12:29:36 AM
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My sister called me chicken once
10/04/2010 01:18:31 AM
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Re: I'm amused by some of the responses
23/03/2010 04:50:42 PM
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And I'm even more amused by this response
24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM
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On a completely unrelated note...
24/03/2010 06:15:25 AM
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Ha!
24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM
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My congratulations then
. *NM*
24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM
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Wow, you guys have completely missed the point of the Wheel of Time series
22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM
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There's a point to it?
22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM
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Yes, RJ has explained it at least a few times and the main sequence of each book invokes his message *NM*
24/03/2010 02:09:01 AM
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You're not taking me seriously now, are you?
24/03/2010 02:54:37 AM
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I meant the reason why RJ wrote WoT in the first place
24/03/2010 06:39:47 AM
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And which, arguably, could be viewed as being done in a hackneyed way
24/03/2010 07:15:55 AM
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I thought the point was to write about a bunch of stuff happening?
09/04/2010 03:42:49 PM
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pfft wth-ever
26/03/2010 12:35:53 AM
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Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
26/03/2010 12:28:19 PM
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bla bla bla
29/03/2010 06:17:07 AM
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Wow. That post was more entertaining than Mr. Roberts' review. Thank you
*NM*
29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM
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You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 08:54:03 AM
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Re: You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 09:13:44 AM
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I know you were, thus the
at the least of my comment
29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM
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Unimpressed
29/03/2010 10:50:07 PM
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Isn't that a bit uncharitable, Dom, considering how much you approved of what I did with CoT?
30/03/2010 12:03:48 AM
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Re: Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
29/03/2010 04:32:23 PM
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Might want to re-read their Wikis again.
29/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
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Awards
29/03/2010 07:42:03 PM
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That link is out of date
29/03/2010 07:54:56 PM
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Re: That link is out of date
29/03/2010 08:22:03 PM
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This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 08:47:54 PM
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Re: This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 09:03:07 PM
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*considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:28:06 PM
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Re: *considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:44:58 PM
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The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 12:24:56 AM
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Re: The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 01:33:04 PM
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No, no, no
30/03/2010 06:38:41 PM
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Re: No, no, no
30/03/2010 07:51:34 PM
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Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 02:10:13 AM
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Re: Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 03:56:57 PM
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He's now reviewed the third book
26/03/2010 12:27:16 PM
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Well, this time I must disagree with him
.
29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM
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I don't think he was claiming that RJ was alone in doing that
29/03/2010 07:44:07 AM
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Hah!
29/03/2010 06:07:28 PM
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Well...
29/03/2010 06:52:10 PM
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Differing perspectives, I guess.
29/03/2010 07:58:13 PM
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I suppose
29/03/2010 08:50:43 PM
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Re: I suppose
30/03/2010 12:18:30 AM
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Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 12:52:01 AM
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Re: Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 07:45:08 AM
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But why only them?
30/03/2010 08:07:00 AM
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The Shadow Rising review
02/04/2010 09:42:53 AM
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I wonder if this borders on trolling
02/04/2010 02:29:58 PM
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That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 09:16:25 PM
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Re: That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 10:28:56 PM
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I agree, Roberts is more and more coming across to me as just bitter
10/04/2010 01:24:52 AM
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Little late to this one as well
10/04/2010 11:12:04 AM
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Perhaps you should have led with this bit
10/04/2010 02:52:23 PM
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I guess I just presumed that people would read the header to his blog
12/04/2010 03:54:10 AM
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What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 08:00:45 PM
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Re: What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 09:22:13 PM
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See my comment below
02/04/2010 09:32:54 PM
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Re: See my comment below
03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM
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Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week
07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM
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Speaking of irritation
02/04/2010 10:50:04 PM
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To be fair, even among the RaFOers there have been tons of posts that missed certain events
09/04/2010 03:47:30 PM
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Commentary, then?
02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM
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Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:11:18 PM
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Re: Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:31:56 PM
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Re: Commentary, then?
05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM
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for a man that bitterly complains about an author who is padding his work
08/04/2010 09:41:07 PM
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1400 words is long-winded?
09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM
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since you can sum up those 1400 words in about 25 yes that's longwinded
09/04/2010 01:36:16 PM
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Except I didn't really sum it up, as I left out quite a bit
10/04/2010 11:15:42 AM
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You are very defensive over this
10/04/2010 01:54:15 PM
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Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else
12/04/2010 03:57:12 AM
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Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts
07/04/2010 08:59:28 PM
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I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
07/04/2010 09:50:39 PM
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Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
08/04/2010 01:06:20 PM
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Which Invisible Man?
09/04/2010 09:58:44 AM
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He brings up some interesting points, if in an unnecessarily rude manner
08/04/2010 12:42:25 PM
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To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM
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why are you so bothered by people being unimpressed with Roberts?
10/04/2010 02:19:08 PM
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Not bothered as much as I am bemused by the ad hominems, to be honest
12/04/2010 04:11:12 AM
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And in vol. 5, Roberts discovers the horrors of the circus
09/04/2010 09:57:03 AM
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Basically he just states the "nothing happens"-argument...
09/04/2010 03:26:02 PM
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Well, what was really resolved here?
10/04/2010 11:25:25 AM
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Well...
12/04/2010 05:05:20 PM
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So very little was resolved and much was set into motion, then?
12/04/2010 06:55:45 PM
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Yes...
12/04/2010 10:51:08 PM
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Ever read Umberto Eco's How To Travel with a Salmon?
12/04/2010 11:07:19 PM
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I guess...
13/04/2010 10:03:03 AM
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Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest
13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM
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Nah...
13/04/2010 05:29:34 PM
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He's read and enjoyed Proust, among others
13/04/2010 07:37:39 PM
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Ah, well...
13/04/2010 09:45:45 PM
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Dismissive, much?
13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM
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About that bifurcation...
14/04/2010 02:02:15 AM
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Sorry that I was busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to reply until now
15/04/2010 01:46:54 PM
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I'm sorry, but he's totally right. "The Circus" made me put down this series for 5 YEARS.
09/04/2010 03:38:16 PM
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Lord of Chaos commentary
16/04/2010 03:39:39 PM
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No no. It was Lord of Heaven!
16/04/2010 05:51:11 PM
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Yeah, I noticed that
16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM
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I would love the see him review Goodkind...
16/04/2010 11:51:07 PM
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I don't wish that on anyone who doesn't have copious amounts of alcohol
16/04/2010 11:57:41 PM
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A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
23/04/2010 08:36:17 AM
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Re: A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
29/04/2010 06:02:28 PM
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I disagree
29/04/2010 09:34:49 PM
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The Path of Daggers commentary
07/05/2010 10:39:03 AM
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Winter's Heart
21/05/2010 12:46:14 PM
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I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
21/05/2010 04:49:31 PM
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Re: I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
25/05/2010 05:05:09 PM
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WH was my least favorite novel in the series, and that is saying a lot.
28/05/2010 03:15:13 PM
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I completely agree with his KoD post. Here is my favorite quote:
28/05/2010 03:08:31 PM
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Roberts reflects back on WoT 1-11, with answers to questions asked of him
25/06/2010 12:51:29 PM
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This guy should be burned at the stake
25/06/2010 03:22:34 PM
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Are you done making a fool out of yourself, Mark?
26/06/2010 06:53:37 PM
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Oh come on...
26/06/2010 09:06:01 PM
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Well, the burning at the stake was a bit much...
26/06/2010 10:19:40 PM
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Well, really! You brought the comment to his notice...
26/06/2010 11:34:08 PM
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And your point is...?
27/06/2010 12:37:00 AM
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Well...
27/06/2010 05:38:12 AM
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Indeed... I think it's rather clear that Larry's goal has been to cause trouble
27/06/2010 10:57:36 AM
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It's not about honour being beschmirched. It's about poor quality arguments. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:09:23 PM
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One year later...
27/03/2011 03:40:29 AM
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Re: One year later...
28/03/2011 05:03:32 PM
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I see you subconsciously support critical takes.
28/03/2011 11:41:48 PM
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No I conciously support telling you and him that you are pathetic, arrogent, & jelous. *NM*
30/03/2011 01:40:36 PM
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Jealous?
30/03/2011 05:20:32 PM
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You both are jelous of Jordan's tremendous succes.
30/03/2011 10:27:36 PM
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Please learn how to spell the word "jealous" before tossing it about in the cavalier fashion you do
30/03/2011 10:54:36 PM
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The fact that you teach is supposed to be a surprise?
31/03/2011 01:23:45 PM
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After reading the standard-issue checklist of generic, tossabout pejoratives...
01/04/2011 03:06:18 PM
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I agree, I didn't even notice it was an old post, definitely did not deserve to be revived. *NM*
30/03/2011 02:41:12 PM
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Now I notice as well that this is a year old. You're very silly, Larry, very silly. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:13:38 PM
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Yep!
30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM
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He's not an "author", he's just a stupid troll, do not feed him *NM*
30/03/2011 02:39:19 PM
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