Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week
Larry Send a noteboard - 07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM
Well, it's probably more of a general comment than anything related to this topic specifically, it just gave me an excuse to post about something that's been irritating me a lot. Too many people seem to be equating cynicism with realism. I appreciate stories set in a darker tone, but I also enjoy idealistic ones. And frankly, whenever someone accuses The Lord of the Rings of not being realistic I can only wonder if they are idiots. It is pretty obvious that it was never intended to be thus. Something cannot fail at achieving something that wasn't it's objective in the first place. Like picking up some centuries old classic and complaining that it doesn't address modern issues, or watching porn and complaining that it doesn't have deep and engaging plots. True, certainly, but why would you expect them to?
I agree, to an extent. I do believe that works ought to be judged primarily on their own merits and faults, which is probably where some of the critiques of WoT on its comparative levels of violence and emotional/physical relationships come into play. I think that is a fair critique to do, as long as it keeps it within the framework of that story itself.
I've read of people expecting obviously idealistic stories to be more cynical. Do you know The Legend of Zelda? A popular video game, where you incarnate the silent protagonist Link who embodies the virtue of Courage as he seeks to retrieve the magical Sword of Evil's Bane that only the True Hero can wield and use it to vanquish the Dark Lord Ganondorf and save the Princess Zelda. And yes, those capitalisations were necessary, I think. Anyway, you'd expect that with such a pretty obvious core it would be quite obvious that it isn't aiming for a dark and grim mood that gets proposed as 'realistic'. And yet, I recently read someone who wrote that he felt the series needed just that (link provided). I can only wonder, why? There is no lack of games that offer this perspective to players, should it be what they desire. Why would you want to turn a game that obviously has the opposite theme and bludgeon it to fit your perspective of what a good story should be?
Yes, that is an amusing example of wish (non)fulfillment, I suppose

Furthermore, sometimes it doesn't even follow anything as clear as that. Some people just use 'realism' as a definition of anything they see fit. I remember reading such a complaint about Robert Jordan's profanity in The Wheel of Time from the Westeros forums. Things like 'mother's milk in a cup' and so forth, being 'unrealistic'. I can only wonder. I've nearly only heard popular American profanity from some of my friends who have been in the army and served in the company of English Canadians, and it isn't because I only know very well mannered people. Likewise, the profanity in common use around here could probably be written on this board with no fear of Sidious reprimanding me, I'm sure.
Cultural differences, no? I do agree with what you say here, but the WoT profanities have never bothered me one way or the other. It was always the faux ornateness of the prose that grated after a while, as it seemed the descriptions were an attempt to cover up characterizations that were never fully realized.
Even in France - same language, same religion - Québecois profanity would be more a source of amusement and curiosity than offence. And the same goes inversely, I do hear a lot of joking about French profanity - it is very anally-centred (whereas ours is sacrilegious) which raises questions about the location of the speaking Frenchman's head, that this is all he has to speak of.
Ha!
I still think the harshest profanity was a Romanian one I pieced together from clues that a Romanian publisher left me a couple of years ago. Something about telling someone to go bugger himself on the crucifix headstone of his mother's grave.So I wonder, why would expecting a significantly different culture in a fantasy world set at a different time to have identical profanity to that which is common to the reader be considered 'realistic'? I would expect it to be the other way 'round. And yet it isn't.
But yes, that is kinda funny
For me, having read two of the author's works, there isn't graphic sex in them, but in the places where it appears, the scenes fit with the overall mood/tone of the story. I think an argument (a very debatable one, though) could be made that the depictions of violence and sex are a bit skewed in this series. One doesn't need to say "Oh, Elayne, I'm going to fuck you in the cornhole until you scream 'Let the Dragon ride again!' baby!" to have intimate scenes that correlate better with the depictions of fireballs, explosions, and limbs being blown apart. Perhaps just a depiction that's closer to how young adults experience emotional relationships rather than an odd, stilted viewpoint on emotional/sexual relationships?
For me, having read two of the author's works, there isn't graphic sex in them, but in the places where it appears, the scenes fit with the overall mood/tone of the story. I think an argument (a very debatable one, though) could be made that the depictions of violence and sex are a bit skewed in this series. One doesn't need to say "Oh, Elayne, I'm going to fuck you in the cornhole until you scream 'Let the Dragon ride again!' baby!" to have intimate scenes that correlate better with the depictions of fireballs, explosions, and limbs being blown apart. Perhaps just a depiction that's closer to how young adults experience emotional relationships rather than an odd, stilted viewpoint on emotional/sexual relationships?Well, if that were the case I wouldn't complain, in part because it might be valid criticism, and in part because I am definitely not ideally suited for arguing on such a subject.
Of course, just because something may be valid, does not mean that opposing viewpoints are automatically invalid. I dislike a lot of the mechanics of the storytelling in this series due to my experiences with a wide variety of writing and can defend that fairly well when I choose, but doubtless others can emphasis elements of the writing that "work" for them and can make strong cases for considering that viewpoint. Might not change my (or others'
opinion, but presenting it is better than nothing, I believe.However, I do not feel that is what the authour is about. Take the following, from the criticism of The Dragon Reborn:
So, for instance, The Dragon Reborn remains coy on the subject of sex. In one chapter Mat is visited in his bedroom by the evil Selene ('so beautiful he almost forgot to breathe'
which causes the young lad 'tingle and pain' [227] as well it might; but nothing more explicit is stated. (Then again, chapter 42 is called 'Easing the Badger', which may well become my new favourite onanistic euphemism). There's spits and spots of violence, but this all feels been-there-done-that tired -- already! and we're only in vol. 3!
which causes the young lad 'tingle and pain' [227] as well it might; but nothing more explicit is stated. (Then again, chapter 42 is called 'Easing the Badger', which may well become my new favourite onanistic euphemism). There's spits and spots of violence, but this all feels been-there-done-that tired -- already! and we're only in vol. 3!He's not commenting about a flawed depiction of emotional relationships, I'm pretty sure he's just mocking Jordan for dodging his way out of saying that Mat had an erection. And the second part also shows that it isn't a criticism of the sex-to-violence descriptions, as he also considers the violence underwhelming.
Well, I agree that for that particular scene, that does imply. But I'm also thinking of how that reticence to explore what is going on with those teen heroes creates an emotional distance that makes for stilted characters. As for the violence, that can be added to what I interpreted without changing it, right?
Now, personally I agree with you that violence is far more easily broached than sex in the series, but from what I know about American exported media, it seems to be a prevalent trait in the United States to be prudish and enjoy violence. Not that we're significantly different here, but such a difference doesn't really surprise me from RJ.
True. Sometimes I wonder if I'm really an American at times, considering how much casual violence irritates me and how little sexual frankness shocks or bothers me
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT.
- 19/03/2010 09:30:25 PM
13160 Views
Heh, While I agree with him about it being derivative, I still encourage people to read it.
- 20/03/2010 02:36:47 AM
2595 Views
My problem with the reviews:
- 20/03/2010 06:29:08 AM
3249 Views
Hear Hear !!!
.......................
=
........................ *NM*
- 20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM
1540 Views
.......................
=
........................ *NM*
- 20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM
1540 Views
well I agree and disagree
- 20/03/2010 06:51:29 AM
2952 Views
Re: well I agree and disagree
- 20/03/2010 02:12:43 PM
2493 Views
I'm amused by some of the responses
- 20/03/2010 07:20:03 PM
2903 Views
Are you suggesting that we are unqualified to disagree with him ?
- 20/03/2010 11:21:44 PM
2622 Views
No, I said rather that it's ridiculous to make such disparaging comments about his takes
- 20/03/2010 11:37:56 PM
2648 Views
I will reply to myself: What's the problem McFly , chicken ?
- 21/03/2010 12:29:36 AM
2446 Views
My sister called me chicken once
- 10/04/2010 01:18:31 AM
2498 Views
Re: I'm amused by some of the responses
- 23/03/2010 04:50:42 PM
2552 Views
And I'm even more amused by this response
- 24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM
2473 Views
- 24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM
2473 Views
On a completely unrelated note...
- 24/03/2010 06:15:25 AM
2364 Views
Ha!
- 24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM
2374 Views
- 24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM
2374 Views
My congratulations then
. *NM*
- 24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM
2306 Views
. *NM*
- 24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM
2306 Views
Wow, you guys have completely missed the point of the Wheel of Time series
- 22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM
2524 Views
- 22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM
2524 Views
There's a point to it?
- 22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM
2500 Views
- 22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM
2500 Views
Yes, RJ has explained it at least a few times and the main sequence of each book invokes his message *NM*
- 24/03/2010 02:09:01 AM
1491 Views
You're not taking me seriously now, are you?
- 24/03/2010 02:54:37 AM
2424 Views
- 24/03/2010 02:54:37 AM
2424 Views
I meant the reason why RJ wrote WoT in the first place
- 24/03/2010 06:39:47 AM
2419 Views
And which, arguably, could be viewed as being done in a hackneyed way
- 24/03/2010 07:15:55 AM
2476 Views
I thought the point was to write about a bunch of stuff happening?
- 09/04/2010 03:42:49 PM
2482 Views
pfft wth-ever
- 26/03/2010 12:35:53 AM
2294 Views
Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
- 26/03/2010 12:28:19 PM
2556 Views
bla bla bla
- 29/03/2010 06:17:07 AM
2450 Views
Wow. That post was more entertaining than Mr. Roberts' review. Thank you
*NM*
- 29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM
1672 Views
*NM*
- 29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM
1672 Views
You must have low standards for entertainment
- 29/03/2010 08:54:03 AM
2386 Views
Re: You must have low standards for entertainment
- 29/03/2010 09:13:44 AM
2487 Views
I know you were, thus the
at the least of my comment
- 29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM
2324 Views
at the least of my comment
- 29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM
2324 Views
Unimpressed
- 29/03/2010 10:50:07 PM
2783 Views
Isn't that a bit uncharitable, Dom, considering how much you approved of what I did with CoT?
- 30/03/2010 12:03:48 AM
2797 Views
Re: Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
- 29/03/2010 04:32:23 PM
2500 Views
Might want to re-read their Wikis again.
- 29/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
2344 Views
Awards
- 29/03/2010 07:42:03 PM
2304 Views
That link is out of date
- 29/03/2010 07:54:56 PM
2295 Views
Re: That link is out of date
- 29/03/2010 08:22:03 PM
2439 Views
This is a battle of win/lose?
- 29/03/2010 08:47:54 PM
2336 Views
Re: This is a battle of win/lose?
- 29/03/2010 09:03:07 PM
2374 Views
*considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
- 29/03/2010 09:28:06 PM
2358 Views
Re: *considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
- 29/03/2010 09:44:58 PM
2572 Views
The final point explains the "defense"
- 30/03/2010 12:24:56 AM
2265 Views
Re: The final point explains the "defense"
- 30/03/2010 01:33:04 PM
2226 Views
No, no, no
- 30/03/2010 06:38:41 PM
2290 Views
Re: No, no, no
- 30/03/2010 07:51:34 PM
2399 Views
Still continuing, huh?
- 31/03/2010 02:10:13 AM
2355 Views
Re: Still continuing, huh?
- 31/03/2010 03:56:57 PM
2317 Views
He's now reviewed the third book
- 26/03/2010 12:27:16 PM
2548 Views
Well, this time I must disagree with him
.
- 29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM
2269 Views
.
- 29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM
2269 Views
I don't think he was claiming that RJ was alone in doing that
- 29/03/2010 07:44:07 AM
2268 Views
Hah!
- 29/03/2010 06:07:28 PM
2287 Views
Well...
- 29/03/2010 06:52:10 PM
2196 Views
Differing perspectives, I guess.
- 29/03/2010 07:58:13 PM
2390 Views
I suppose
- 29/03/2010 08:50:43 PM
2300 Views
Re: I suppose
- 30/03/2010 12:18:30 AM
2438 Views
Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
- 30/03/2010 12:52:01 AM
2272 Views
Re: Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
- 30/03/2010 07:45:08 AM
2456 Views
But why only them?
- 30/03/2010 08:07:00 AM
2353 Views
The Shadow Rising review
- 02/04/2010 09:42:53 AM
2541 Views
I wonder if this borders on trolling
- 02/04/2010 02:29:58 PM
11088 Views
That would be a mistake
- 02/04/2010 09:16:25 PM
2552 Views
Re: That would be a mistake
- 02/04/2010 10:28:56 PM
2313 Views
I agree, Roberts is more and more coming across to me as just bitter
- 10/04/2010 01:24:52 AM
2423 Views
Little late to this one as well
- 10/04/2010 11:12:04 AM
2450 Views
Perhaps you should have led with this bit
- 10/04/2010 02:52:23 PM
2537 Views
I guess I just presumed that people would read the header to his blog
- 12/04/2010 03:54:10 AM
2358 Views
- 12/04/2010 03:54:10 AM
2358 Views
What review? I couldn't find one...
- 02/04/2010 08:00:45 PM
2506 Views
Re: What review? I couldn't find one...
- 02/04/2010 09:22:13 PM
2514 Views
See my comment below
- 02/04/2010 09:32:54 PM
2582 Views
Re: See my comment below
- 03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM
2900 Views
Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week
- 07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM
2771 Views
Speaking of irritation
- 02/04/2010 10:50:04 PM
2480 Views
To be fair, even among the RaFOers there have been tons of posts that missed certain events
- 09/04/2010 03:47:30 PM
2346 Views
Commentary, then?
- 02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM
2350 Views
- 02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM
2350 Views
Here's the thing...
- 02/04/2010 10:11:18 PM
2307 Views
Re: Here's the thing...
- 02/04/2010 10:31:56 PM
2145 Views
Re: Commentary, then?
- 05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM
2260 Views
- 05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM
2260 Views
for a man that bitterly complains about an author who is padding his work
- 08/04/2010 09:41:07 PM
2486 Views
1400 words is long-winded?
- 09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM
2526 Views
- 09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM
2526 Views
since you can sum up those 1400 words in about 25 yes that's longwinded
- 09/04/2010 01:36:16 PM
2402 Views
Except I didn't really sum it up, as I left out quite a bit
- 10/04/2010 11:15:42 AM
2429 Views
You are very defensive over this
- 10/04/2010 01:54:15 PM
2234 Views
Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else
- 12/04/2010 03:57:12 AM
2284 Views
Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts
- 07/04/2010 08:59:28 PM
2459 Views
I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
- 07/04/2010 09:50:39 PM
2340 Views
Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
- 08/04/2010 01:06:20 PM
2197 Views
Which Invisible Man?
- 09/04/2010 09:58:44 AM
2426 Views
He brings up some interesting points, if in an unnecessarily rude manner
- 08/04/2010 12:42:25 PM
2357 Views
To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
- 09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM
2355 Views
- 09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM
2355 Views
Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
- 09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM
2889 Views
- 09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM
2889 Views
Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
- 10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM
2362 Views
- 10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM
2362 Views
why are you so bothered by people being unimpressed with Roberts?
- 10/04/2010 02:19:08 PM
2367 Views
Not bothered as much as I am bemused by the ad hominems, to be honest
- 12/04/2010 04:11:12 AM
2687 Views
And in vol. 5, Roberts discovers the horrors of the circus
- 09/04/2010 09:57:03 AM
2345 Views
Basically he just states the "nothing happens"-argument...
- 09/04/2010 03:26:02 PM
2232 Views
Well, what was really resolved here?
- 10/04/2010 11:25:25 AM
2327 Views
Well...
- 12/04/2010 05:05:20 PM
2451 Views
So very little was resolved and much was set into motion, then?
- 12/04/2010 06:55:45 PM
2402 Views
Yes...
- 12/04/2010 10:51:08 PM
2145 Views
Ever read Umberto Eco's How To Travel with a Salmon?
- 12/04/2010 11:07:19 PM
2470 Views
I guess...
- 13/04/2010 10:03:03 AM
2456 Views
Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest
- 13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM
3596 Views
Nah...
- 13/04/2010 05:29:34 PM
2154 Views
He's read and enjoyed Proust, among others
- 13/04/2010 07:37:39 PM
2261 Views
Ah, well...
- 13/04/2010 09:45:45 PM
2201 Views
Dismissive, much?
- 13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM
2378 Views
- 13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM
2378 Views
About that bifurcation...
- 14/04/2010 02:02:15 AM
2347 Views
Sorry that I was busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to reply until now
- 15/04/2010 01:46:54 PM
2476 Views
I'm sorry, but he's totally right. "The Circus" made me put down this series for 5 YEARS.
- 09/04/2010 03:38:16 PM
2359 Views
Lord of Chaos commentary
- 16/04/2010 03:39:39 PM
2322 Views
No no. It was Lord of Heaven!
- 16/04/2010 05:51:11 PM
2222 Views
Yeah, I noticed that
- 16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM
2141 Views
- 16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM
2141 Views
I would love the see him review Goodkind...
- 16/04/2010 11:51:07 PM
2367 Views
I don't wish that on anyone who doesn't have copious amounts of alcohol
- 16/04/2010 11:57:41 PM
2260 Views
A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
- 23/04/2010 08:36:17 AM
2389 Views
Re: A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
- 29/04/2010 06:02:28 PM
2339 Views
I disagree
- 29/04/2010 09:34:49 PM
2163 Views
The Path of Daggers commentary
- 07/05/2010 10:39:03 AM
2482 Views
Winter's Heart
- 21/05/2010 12:46:14 PM
2459 Views
I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
- 21/05/2010 04:49:31 PM
2311 Views
Re: I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
- 25/05/2010 05:05:09 PM
2459 Views
WH was my least favorite novel in the series, and that is saying a lot.
- 28/05/2010 03:15:13 PM
2310 Views
I completely agree with his KoD post. Here is my favorite quote:
- 28/05/2010 03:08:31 PM
2632 Views
Roberts reflects back on WoT 1-11, with answers to questions asked of him
- 25/06/2010 12:51:29 PM
2428 Views
This guy should be burned at the stake
- 25/06/2010 03:22:34 PM
9903 Views
Are you done making a fool out of yourself, Mark?
- 26/06/2010 06:53:37 PM
2369 Views
Oh come on...
- 26/06/2010 09:06:01 PM
2440 Views
Well, the burning at the stake was a bit much...
- 26/06/2010 10:19:40 PM
2438 Views
Well, really! You brought the comment to his notice...
- 26/06/2010 11:34:08 PM
2440 Views
And your point is...?
- 27/06/2010 12:37:00 AM
2451 Views
Well...
- 27/06/2010 05:38:12 AM
2404 Views
Indeed... I think it's rather clear that Larry's goal has been to cause trouble
- 27/06/2010 10:57:36 AM
2584 Views
It's not about honour being beschmirched. It's about poor quality arguments. *NM*
- 30/03/2011 04:09:23 PM
1354 Views
One year later...
- 27/03/2011 03:40:29 AM
2264 Views
Re: One year later...
- 28/03/2011 05:03:32 PM
2504 Views
I see you subconsciously support critical takes.
- 28/03/2011 11:41:48 PM
2507 Views
No I conciously support telling you and him that you are pathetic, arrogent, & jelous. *NM*
- 30/03/2011 01:40:36 PM
1401 Views
Jealous?
- 30/03/2011 05:20:32 PM
2275 Views
You both are jelous of Jordan's tremendous succes.
- 30/03/2011 10:27:36 PM
2288 Views
Please learn how to spell the word "jealous" before tossing it about in the cavalier fashion you do
- 30/03/2011 10:54:36 PM
2320 Views
The fact that you teach is supposed to be a surprise?
- 31/03/2011 01:23:45 PM
2239 Views
After reading the standard-issue checklist of generic, tossabout pejoratives...
- 01/04/2011 03:06:18 PM
2400 Views
I agree, I didn't even notice it was an old post, definitely did not deserve to be revived. *NM*
- 30/03/2011 02:41:12 PM
1312 Views
Now I notice as well that this is a year old. You're very silly, Larry, very silly. *NM*
- 30/03/2011 04:13:38 PM
1437 Views
Yep!
- 30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM
2218 Views
- 30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM
2218 Views
He's not an "author", he's just a stupid troll, do not feed him *NM*
- 30/03/2011 02:39:19 PM
1326 Views

