Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest
Larry Send a noteboard - 13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM
It depends on one's patience and willingness to dive into such a big story. Maybe people (like Adam Roberts?), who normally rather read short series, stand-alone novels or short-stories are simply overwhelmed by the many details, plot-lines, foreshadowings, characters, factions, riddles, etc., in the WoT. They call for resolutions even already in the middle of the series, because they can't see what the point of such a detailed story is (especially if they already seem biased against the books from the start). That Roberts apparently thinks that EotW is a better book than TSR or TFoH, is in my view completely incomprehensible. Maybe the special but intentional format of these "monster-fantasy series" simply doesn't work for such people with a shorter attention span. Likely Roberts also couldn't bear to see six seasons of Lost to get to the resolution, but already skip the series after the second or third season, because (naturally, though!) few things are resolved till then. It also would be interesting to see how e.g. his reviews of the Malazan books would look like. I guess that he would be even more confused, and thus describe the story as even more pointless than WoT, simply because it's such long and detailed.
I don't believe the WoT series is as "big" of a story as you make it out to be. Complicated series, with tons of minor character "moving parts"? Yes. But certainly not an overly complex tale. If it were, I highly doubt it'd have a massive following, to be honest. Don't know why you think it's "incomprehensible" that Roberts (or others) would think the first book was better than the fourth and latter books: it does have more defined plot structure and flow to it. The latter books begin to meander so much that one may be pardoned if s/he wonders if the point had been lost among so many secondary subpoints. Doubtless, there is an argument to be made that all these subplots might make for a tapestry, but at what cost? Having millions of words devoted to creating all these subplots risks overshadowing the primary plot and the lack of focus on the forest for just a few quaint trees. It's not that readers who dislike the series increasingly as it putters along are "confused." It's rather that for many, the series appears to be more and more of a mess with each passing volume, as the author(s) struggled to tame the brambles of these branching side stories. As is the case with a volume such as CoT, the action became choked up in the having to account for all the minor details that could have been shorn from the series without hurting the potential power of the closing narrative.
Even if there are - as a matter of course - slower parts in a work like WoT, I'm still overall entertained, because in my view there are gripping scenes in every book and I especially like RJ's ideas of "mythical engineering" (IIRC, RJ used this term) or the Pattern, etc. . Besides that, I'm convinced that there will be a grandiose finale in the last book. Of course, I'm aware it isn't highest literature, but in the end I think one can only judge WoT's worth after the last book is completed to see what was necessary and what redundant. However, it's clear that Roberts actually doesn't really care about seriously reviewing the positive and negative aspects of WoT, but is simply trying to make a few, mainly lame jokes or sarcastic comments. Things like the heroes hiding in a circus or the villains wearing black & red are certainly clichés. On the other hand, if one recalls that RJ's clever idea was that the plot of the series is supposed to be the base of our various myths, it makes perfect sense again that he uses such motifs, because e.g. many of myths of our world also associate black and red with evil. If Roberts criticizes this, he doesn't seem to understand RJ's aim at all.
The "mythical engineering," in my honest opinion, is vastly disappointing. There is little subtlety to it, as entire "real world" cultures are borrowed nearly whole cloth without any major alterations made. Having a mishmash of French, Spanish, Persian, Japanese, Tudor English, and a few other cultural elements thrown together in a fashion that depends upon a reader's stereotypical views of those societies/locales gets rather wearisome over time. Perhaps it's because I have a grad degree in cultural history and I see through the parlor trappings and feel the laziness and faults in the portrayals. The settings are a sham to me. Trying to retro-"engineer" disparate myths into a fantasy setting is rather ham-handed, considering the narrative acrobatics RJ had to do just to shoehorn in references to stories whose actual origins had to deal with very different matters than the ones he tried to imply. It just felt silly and rather stupid, to be honest. Perhaps some enjoyed it, but I wouldn't be surprised if for those who had a grounding in cultural traditions that the seams were so visible as to make the entire affair risible.
And again, remember that Roberts is not writing a formal review. I would imagine he would have had a lot more to say if he were writing those reviews for say Strange Horizons (where he just had an interesting review of Philip K. Dick's VALIS novels posted last week).
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT.
19/03/2010 09:30:25 PM
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Heh, While I agree with him about it being derivative, I still encourage people to read it.
20/03/2010 02:36:47 AM
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My problem with the reviews:
20/03/2010 06:29:08 AM
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Hear Hear !!! ....................... = ........................ *NM*
20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM
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well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 06:51:29 AM
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Re: well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 02:12:43 PM
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I'm amused by some of the responses
20/03/2010 07:20:03 PM
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Are you suggesting that we are unqualified to disagree with him ?
20/03/2010 11:21:44 PM
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No, I said rather that it's ridiculous to make such disparaging comments about his takes
20/03/2010 11:37:56 PM
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I will reply to myself: What's the problem McFly , chicken ?
21/03/2010 12:29:36 AM
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My sister called me chicken once
10/04/2010 01:18:31 AM
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Re: I'm amused by some of the responses
23/03/2010 04:50:42 PM
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And I'm even more amused by this response
24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM
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On a completely unrelated note...
24/03/2010 06:15:25 AM
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Ha!
24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM
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My congratulations then . *NM*
24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM
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Wow, you guys have completely missed the point of the Wheel of Time series
22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM
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There's a point to it?
22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM
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Yes, RJ has explained it at least a few times and the main sequence of each book invokes his message *NM*
24/03/2010 02:09:01 AM
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You're not taking me seriously now, are you?
24/03/2010 02:54:37 AM
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I meant the reason why RJ wrote WoT in the first place
24/03/2010 06:39:47 AM
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And which, arguably, could be viewed as being done in a hackneyed way
24/03/2010 07:15:55 AM
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I thought the point was to write about a bunch of stuff happening?
09/04/2010 03:42:49 PM
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pfft wth-ever
26/03/2010 12:35:53 AM
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Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
26/03/2010 12:28:19 PM
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bla bla bla
29/03/2010 06:17:07 AM
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Wow. That post was more entertaining than Mr. Roberts' review. Thank you *NM*
29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM
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You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 08:54:03 AM
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Re: You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 09:13:44 AM
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I know you were, thus the at the least of my comment
29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM
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Unimpressed
29/03/2010 10:50:07 PM
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Isn't that a bit uncharitable, Dom, considering how much you approved of what I did with CoT?
30/03/2010 12:03:48 AM
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Re: Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
29/03/2010 04:32:23 PM
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Might want to re-read their Wikis again.
29/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
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Awards
29/03/2010 07:42:03 PM
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That link is out of date
29/03/2010 07:54:56 PM
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Re: That link is out of date
29/03/2010 08:22:03 PM
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This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 08:47:54 PM
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Re: This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 09:03:07 PM
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*considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:28:06 PM
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Re: *considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:44:58 PM
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The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 12:24:56 AM
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Re: The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 01:33:04 PM
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No, no, no
30/03/2010 06:38:41 PM
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Re: No, no, no
30/03/2010 07:51:34 PM
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Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 02:10:13 AM
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Re: Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 03:56:57 PM
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He's now reviewed the third book
26/03/2010 12:27:16 PM
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Well, this time I must disagree with him .
29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM
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I don't think he was claiming that RJ was alone in doing that
29/03/2010 07:44:07 AM
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Hah!
29/03/2010 06:07:28 PM
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Well...
29/03/2010 06:52:10 PM
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Differing perspectives, I guess.
29/03/2010 07:58:13 PM
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I suppose
29/03/2010 08:50:43 PM
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Re: I suppose
30/03/2010 12:18:30 AM
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Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 12:52:01 AM
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Re: Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 07:45:08 AM
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But why only them?
30/03/2010 08:07:00 AM
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The Shadow Rising review
02/04/2010 09:42:53 AM
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I wonder if this borders on trolling
02/04/2010 02:29:58 PM
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That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 09:16:25 PM
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Re: That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 10:28:56 PM
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I agree, Roberts is more and more coming across to me as just bitter
10/04/2010 01:24:52 AM
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Little late to this one as well
10/04/2010 11:12:04 AM
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Perhaps you should have led with this bit
10/04/2010 02:52:23 PM
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I guess I just presumed that people would read the header to his blog
12/04/2010 03:54:10 AM
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What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 08:00:45 PM
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Re: What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 09:22:13 PM
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See my comment below
02/04/2010 09:32:54 PM
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Re: See my comment below
03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM
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Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week
07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM
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Speaking of irritation
02/04/2010 10:50:04 PM
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To be fair, even among the RaFOers there have been tons of posts that missed certain events
09/04/2010 03:47:30 PM
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Commentary, then?
02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM
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Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:11:18 PM
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Re: Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:31:56 PM
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Re: Commentary, then?
05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM
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for a man that bitterly complains about an author who is padding his work
08/04/2010 09:41:07 PM
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1400 words is long-winded?
09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM
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since you can sum up those 1400 words in about 25 yes that's longwinded
09/04/2010 01:36:16 PM
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Except I didn't really sum it up, as I left out quite a bit
10/04/2010 11:15:42 AM
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You are very defensive over this
10/04/2010 01:54:15 PM
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Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else
12/04/2010 03:57:12 AM
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Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts
07/04/2010 08:59:28 PM
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I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
07/04/2010 09:50:39 PM
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Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
08/04/2010 01:06:20 PM
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Which Invisible Man?
09/04/2010 09:58:44 AM
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He brings up some interesting points, if in an unnecessarily rude manner
08/04/2010 12:42:25 PM
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To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM
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why are you so bothered by people being unimpressed with Roberts?
10/04/2010 02:19:08 PM
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Not bothered as much as I am bemused by the ad hominems, to be honest
12/04/2010 04:11:12 AM
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And in vol. 5, Roberts discovers the horrors of the circus
09/04/2010 09:57:03 AM
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Basically he just states the "nothing happens"-argument...
09/04/2010 03:26:02 PM
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Well, what was really resolved here?
10/04/2010 11:25:25 AM
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Well...
12/04/2010 05:05:20 PM
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So very little was resolved and much was set into motion, then?
12/04/2010 06:55:45 PM
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Yes...
12/04/2010 10:51:08 PM
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Ever read Umberto Eco's How To Travel with a Salmon?
12/04/2010 11:07:19 PM
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I guess...
13/04/2010 10:03:03 AM
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Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest
13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM
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Nah...
13/04/2010 05:29:34 PM
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He's read and enjoyed Proust, among others
13/04/2010 07:37:39 PM
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Ah, well...
13/04/2010 09:45:45 PM
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Dismissive, much?
13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM
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About that bifurcation...
14/04/2010 02:02:15 AM
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Sorry that I was busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to reply until now
15/04/2010 01:46:54 PM
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I'm sorry, but he's totally right. "The Circus" made me put down this series for 5 YEARS.
09/04/2010 03:38:16 PM
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Lord of Chaos commentary
16/04/2010 03:39:39 PM
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No no. It was Lord of Heaven!
16/04/2010 05:51:11 PM
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Yeah, I noticed that
16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM
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I would love the see him review Goodkind...
16/04/2010 11:51:07 PM
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I don't wish that on anyone who doesn't have copious amounts of alcohol
16/04/2010 11:57:41 PM
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A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
23/04/2010 08:36:17 AM
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Re: A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
29/04/2010 06:02:28 PM
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I disagree
29/04/2010 09:34:49 PM
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The Path of Daggers commentary
07/05/2010 10:39:03 AM
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Winter's Heart
21/05/2010 12:46:14 PM
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I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
21/05/2010 04:49:31 PM
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Re: I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
25/05/2010 05:05:09 PM
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WH was my least favorite novel in the series, and that is saying a lot.
28/05/2010 03:15:13 PM
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I completely agree with his KoD post. Here is my favorite quote:
28/05/2010 03:08:31 PM
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Roberts reflects back on WoT 1-11, with answers to questions asked of him
25/06/2010 12:51:29 PM
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This guy should be burned at the stake
25/06/2010 03:22:34 PM
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Are you done making a fool out of yourself, Mark?
26/06/2010 06:53:37 PM
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Oh come on...
26/06/2010 09:06:01 PM
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Well, the burning at the stake was a bit much...
26/06/2010 10:19:40 PM
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Well, really! You brought the comment to his notice...
26/06/2010 11:34:08 PM
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And your point is...?
27/06/2010 12:37:00 AM
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Well...
27/06/2010 05:38:12 AM
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Indeed... I think it's rather clear that Larry's goal has been to cause trouble
27/06/2010 10:57:36 AM
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It's not about honour being beschmirched. It's about poor quality arguments. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:09:23 PM
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One year later...
27/03/2011 03:40:29 AM
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Re: One year later...
28/03/2011 05:03:32 PM
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I see you subconsciously support critical takes.
28/03/2011 11:41:48 PM
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No I conciously support telling you and him that you are pathetic, arrogent, & jelous. *NM*
30/03/2011 01:40:36 PM
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Jealous?
30/03/2011 05:20:32 PM
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You both are jelous of Jordan's tremendous succes.
30/03/2011 10:27:36 PM
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Please learn how to spell the word "jealous" before tossing it about in the cavalier fashion you do
30/03/2011 10:54:36 PM
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The fact that you teach is supposed to be a surprise?
31/03/2011 01:23:45 PM
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After reading the standard-issue checklist of generic, tossabout pejoratives...
01/04/2011 03:06:18 PM
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I agree, I didn't even notice it was an old post, definitely did not deserve to be revived. *NM*
30/03/2011 02:41:12 PM
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Now I notice as well that this is a year old. You're very silly, Larry, very silly. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:13:38 PM
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Yep!
30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM
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He's not an "author", he's just a stupid troll, do not feed him *NM*
30/03/2011 02:39:19 PM
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